What is the "Greatest" martial art?

[Geddy Peart]

I've been watching the show "Human Weapon" on the History channel as well as reading it's message boards on the History Channel website.

There's quite a bit of debating going on those boards about which martial art form is the "greatest", the best one. And so far the debators seem to be divided into 3 groups, the traditionalists that favor standind styles (Karate, Kung Fu, TKD), modern MMA fans/grappling practioners and those who say no style is the best and that all of them bring something unique to the table.

Several good points have been made on all sides. The traditionalists have pointed out that if Karate, TKD, etc are so ineffective why have they remained popular and in practice for centuries, and MMA fans have noted that in the original UFC and other earlier MMA events, the stand up fighters were all losing to BJJ/grappling.

Personally, I think each MA does bring something unique to the table. However due to its focus on ground techniques, leverage & technique over strength, I think BJJ is definitely one of the best if not most realistic fighting styles since most street confrontations end up on the ground or in the clinch.

And it has been documented in a sense during the old NHB, UFC, Gracie challenge, Vale Tudo competitions.

And because of that I feel all grappling styles (BJJ, wrestling, Judo, Sambo) have significant advantages over traditional "stand up" styles(Karate, TKD, Kung Fu).

But what do other board members think?

[Just Jeans]

...and those who say no style is the best and that all of them bring something unique to the table.

That'd be me. I think "greatest" is a subjective term, because everyone is going to have a favorite, and they've all got their particular strengths and weaknesses.

I'm partial to Kendo and Wushu (particularly Mizongyi).

[BlakeTyner]

I'm with Jeansie, the question is way too subjective, but if I had to pick the one I'd want to learn (and get very good at) I'd have to go with Aikido. I think it blends enough of the grapple and hold stuff with using your opponent's momentum against him.

I don't know whether or not it being Stephen Seagal's style makes it better or worse, but there you go.

~Blake

[GameOver]

Are we talking about for self defense?

BJJ/Judo/Sambo
Boxing
Kick Boxing/Muay Thai/Savate etc...
MMA
Some Forms of TKD and Karate (Depends on the dojo and style karate)



I wouldn't want to do Aikido for self defense.

[Geddy Peart]

That'd be me. I think "greatest" is a subjective term, because everyone is going to have a favorite, and they've all got their particular strengths and weaknesses.

I'm partial to Kendo and Wushu (particularly Mizongyi).


I agree to a degree, Jeans. As I said each style brings something different to the table. However, it has been shown that really flashy styles leave you open to getting hit, countered and taken down.

That's also why I feel grappling styles hold significant advantages over stand up styles. When you're on the ground, you can't punch or kick to well (even if you're on top.

[GameOver]

I agree to a degree, Jeans. As I said each style brings something different to the table. .



I use to think that, and then I found Bullshido.net. They blew my mind.

[Geddy Peart]

Care to elaborate GO?

I'm checking out the site now, but what in particular made you think that?

[GameOver]

Care to elaborate GO?

I'm checking out the site now, but what in particular made you think that?

First UFCs, Traditional martial arts got their ass kicked by grappling. MMA fighters now use Muay Thai (and all it's variants), boxing, wrestling, bjj, sambo. Not Kung Fu and Aikido. Those MAs don't train in with aliveness or spar. How can you defend yourself if you don't know how you're going to react to getting hit?

You'll find threads in Bullshido, started by TMAers, about how BJJ doesn't work on the streets because it's a sport.

[Geddy Peart]

First UFCs, Traditional martial arts got their ass kicked by grappling. MMA fighters now use Muay Thai (and all it's variants), boxing, wrestling, bjj, sambo. Not Kung Fu and Aikido. Those MAs don't train in with aliveness or spar. How can you defend yourself if you don't know how you're going to react to getting hit?


I kinda made that point about the earlier UFCs. And that's part of the reason why I'm traning in BJJ not only because I want to fight in MMA someday, but I also want to really know how to take care of myself if I'm ever in a real-life confrontation.

Despite that and even though most traditional MAs teach a lot of ineffective methods, aren't there at least some positive aspects that can be taken?

[GameOver]

I kinda made that point about the earlier UFCs. And that's part of the reason why I'm traning in BJJ not only because I want to fight in MMA someday, but I also want to really know how to take care of myself if I'm ever in a real-life confrontation.

You asked me to elaborate. That's one of the reasons. I also train in Jiu-Jitsu, as well as Muay Thai.


Despite that and even though most traditional MAs teach a lot of ineffective methods, aren't there at least some positive aspects that can be taken?

SD wise? No. Well, you learn how to fall in Aikido. Look TMAs are great in a cultural aspect, but don't think you'll learn how to defend yourself. I know some parents put their kids in shit like that so they can learn respect and what not, but the parent should be teaching them that. A kid will learn all that and how do defend himself in BJJ and Judo.

[Geddy Peart]

I see what you mean and I pretty much agree.

Basically, any positive aspects from TMAs can be learned in more effective arts such as BJJ and Muay Thai.

You still haven't answered the original question, by the way. Do you think there is an MA that is the "greatest"?

[GameOver]

Basically, any positive aspects from TMAs can be learned in more effective arts such as BJJ and Muay Thai.
Pretty much.

You still haven't answered the original question, by the way. Do you think there is an MA that is the "greatest"?
I would have to say MMA. It has all all ranges of fighting. Standup, Clinch, take downs, and ground fighting. I'm not saying you can go out and take on 12 guys and win or even 3, for that matter. But, you will be more prepared for a 1-on-1 confrontation.

If MMA doesn't count, I'd go with BJJ, Judo, Sambo or Wrestling. You can choke 'em out or break a limb and make a getway. You end up on bottom? You have the training to get into a better position.

[Just Jeans]

However, it has been shown that really flashy styles leave you open to getting hit, countered and taken down.

Considering I can't practice any art due to my health, my enjoyment of the art stems from the aesthetics more than the practicality. Mizongyi may or may not have certain weaknesses when compared with other styles, but I rather enjoy watching it in practice more than most arts. Same with Kendo. I enjoy watching people sword fight.

[D-Lo]

Statisically I would say wrestling is the best, it's extremley difficult to fight a good wrestler if you have no wrestling experience yourself. Muay Thai is good for the street because it is so dangerous with elbows and knees, whereas grappling is not always the best idea in a streetfight.

Obviously Jiu-Jitsu ranks high on my list as well, it would not be my first choice if I'm getting jumped though. Jiu-Jitsu blurs the line with wrestling as it also uses takedowns and various dominant posistions on the ground, but it's not as effective on concrete or with two guys kicking you in the face while you work for a sub.

There is no 'greatest' but if you could only know one I'd have to say Greco Roman. That barely edges out western boxing. Both of those styles would have you well equipped to deal with 90% of street fights.

In competition it's Jiu-jitsu first, then either a good striking art or good wrestling backround second. Although wrestling is fine as your primary in comps as well.

[GameOver]

If your fighting 3 people and have no friends around you deserve to get kicked in the face. I know shit happens but, c'mon. Three people you should run.

[D-Lo]

What if your friends bitch out and don't help you. What if you get sucker punched or blindsided with a bottle to the face and immediately jumped? Running isn't always an option. You deserve being kicked in the face because of that? I don't know about that, you might think differently if you are in the ER at 3 a.m. getting your entire head wrapped up.

I'm the first one to say walk away before fighting. You simply can not always walk away.

I actually had an altercation 2 weeks ago and only used grappling. That's what happens when alchohal is present. I was suprised I didn't bother striking since that is what I have trained in on and off for most of my life.

[GameOver]

What if your friends bitch out and don't help you. What if you get sucker punched or blindsided with a bottle to the face and immediately jumped? Running isn't always an option. You deserve being kicked in the face because of that?


I'm the first one to say walk away before fighting. You simply can not always walk away.

I actually had an altercation 2 weeks ago and only used grappling. That's what happens when alchohal is present. I was suprised I didn't bother striking since that is what I have trained in on and off for most of my life.
You probably need new friends.

My point is; it's a bad idea to take on more than one person regardless if you do a martial art or not. But, as I said before, I know shit happens. "But c'mon" means if you know your fighting more than one person you do grappling and you go to the floor you deserve getting kicked in the face. Unless you can take one down choke em out and run away or choke them all out than, good job.


I don't know about that, you might think differently if you are in the ER at 3 a.m. getting your entire head wrapped up.

I don't go out to places where people get crazy "I'm going to bust a beer bottle over your head" drunk. I'm boring like that.

[D-Lo]

The bar attack I mentioned did not happen to me personally, it was to illustrate what can happen. As told to me, the guy it happened to wasn't looking for trouble and they were trying to leave the bar but the frat boys had different plans.
Just thought I'd point that out. I know online everyone's a toughguy but seriously if that had been me one of those guys would have gotten wrecked cuz that shit aint cool.

The real point in that story was I think pulling guard or keeping the fight on the ground would not have been very effective because those cowards mobbed the guy. Even Rickson probably would have gotten his shit ruined against those frat boys. He'd murder most people 1 on 1. In that same scenario I'd see Tyson or Cro Cop smashing them all.

[GameOver]

The real point in that story was I think pulling guard or keeping the fight on the ground would not have been very effective because those cowards mobbed the guy. Even Rickson probably would have gotten his shit ruined against those frat boys. He'd murder most people 1 on 1. In that same scenario I'd see Tyson or Cro Cop smashing them all.

I don't know it's still 3 on 1. It doesn't make it impossible but damn close. For example; Bas Rutten took on 3 (maybe more) guys and he came out fine. But, that's El Guapo... You can't fuck with El Guapo.

http://www.ironlife.com/mag/issue8/images/rutten1.jpg

[Geddy Peart]

Statisically I would say wrestling is the best, it's extremley difficult to fight a good wrestler if you have no wrestling experience yourself. Muay Thai is good for the street because it is so dangerous with elbows and knees, whereas grappling is not always the best idea in a streetfight.

Obviously Jiu-Jitsu ranks high on my list as well, it would not be my first choice if I'm getting jumped though. Jiu-Jitsu blurs the line with wrestling as it also uses takedowns and various dominant posistions on the ground, but it's not as effective on concrete or with two guys kicking you in the face while you work for a sub.

There is no 'greatest' but if you could only know one I'd have to say Greco Roman. That barely edges out western boxing. Both of those styles would have you well equipped to deal with 90% of street fights.

In competition it's Jiu-jitsu first, then either a good striking art or good wrestling backround second. Although wrestling is fine as your primary in comps as well.


I would rank BJJ above G-R simply because BJJ teaches you to be comfortable on your back. Also BJJ has so many subs, escapes and whatnot that wrestling doesn't teach.

[Denzil]

I don't know it's still 3 on 1. It doesn't make it impossible but damn close. For example; Bas Rutten took on 3 (maybe more) guys and he came out fine. But, that's El Guapo... You can't fuck with El Guapo.

http://www.ironlife.com/mag/issue8/images/rutten1.jpg

Bas Rutten may be the greatest man alive.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y

"Wrong move, don't do that to El Guapo!"

"Right away you say ok i'm sorry..... BANG BANG BANG No I'm not."

[D-Lo]

I would rank BJJ above G-R simply because BJJ teaches you to be comfortable on your back. Also BJJ has so many subs, escapes and whatnot that wrestling doesn't teach.

I would say the 'escapes' part is also true of wrestling. We've had a couple oylmpic wrestlers come in from time to time and they'd show us shit I never learned in BJJ. One of my favorite mount escapes is a wrestling move not normally taught in BJJ.

It's a myth a I hear alot, that wrestlers can't fight off of their back. That is definatley not true.

I got to do some MMA training with one of the guys, I guess he placed in the olypmics way back when. He appeared to be in his 40's. Anyway, his wrestling ability: Fucking ridiclous. His takedowns were completly impossible for me to deal with, I tried to sink in a guillotine like 10 different times when he'd shoot in and I never came close. Usually I hit that one a lot off of the takedown when I go against a blue or someone around that experience level. I don't always finish the sub but I at least catch them. Not this guy.

I'm not a wrestler myself, but I do think highly of wrestling obviously. Just my personal experience, wrestlers were always the hardest people to fight.

Maybe MMA will be considered an art of and to itself, then I would have to say MMA is the best style.

That's why even though I initially said wrestling, that was meant as 'if you could only use one style'. No one style is complete or the greatest but that kind of goes unsaid.
ADDED:
Bas Rutten may be the greatest man alive.

"Wrong move, don't do that to El Guapo!"

"Right away you say ok i'm sorry..... BANG BANG BANG No I'm not."

"Doan yoo evar do thas!"

Or something like that.

[Geddy Peart]

I would say the 'escapes' part is also true of wrestling. We've had a couple oylmpic wrestlers come in from time to time and they'd show us shit I never learned in BJJ. One of my favorite mount escapes is a wrestling move not normally taught in BJJ.

It's a myth a I hear alot, that wrestlers can't fight off of their back. That is definatley not true.

I got to do some MMA training with one of the guys, I guess he placed in the olypmics way back when. He appeared to be in his 40's. Anyway, his wrestling ability: Fucking ridiclous. His takedowns were completly impossible for me to deal with, I tried to sink in a guillotine like 10 different times when he'd shoot in and I never came close. Usually I hit that one a lot off of the takedown when I go against a blue or someone around that experience level. I don't always finish the sub but I at least catch them. Not this guy.

I'm not a wrestler myself, but I do think highly of wrestling obviously. Just my personal experience, wrestlers were always the hardest people to fight.

Maybe MMA will be considered an art of and to itself, then I would have to say MMA is the best style.

That's why even though I initially said wrestling, that was meant as 'if you could only use one style'. No one style is complete or the greatest but that kind of goes unsaid.
ADDED:


"Doan yoo evar do thas!"

Or something like that.

Good points. Maybe my view is a little different because I'm learning Renzo Gracie's particular style of BJJ. He incorporated a lot of Judo and G/R techniques into his BJJ style so I'm learning stuff from all three.

You should definitely buy Renzo's book "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: Technique and Theory". It considered one of the best reference books for BJJ.

[D-Lo]

I might take a look at that one some time. I have one by Rigan Machado for the gi techniques, and then two of Eddie Bravo's books for the no gi. The Eddie Bravo books were forbidden in my school because the head instructor had a match scheduled with Bravo and for some reason it was canceled so there is still some beef. He thinks Bravo is a hack, and that's his right. I've used some of the rubber guard stuff and it worked pretty well. It's different anyway.

[GameOver]

http://i9.tinypic.com/61lpcms.gif