Freddy vs Jason

[BlakeTyner]

Wait...Freddy died by fire, Jason by water. How can we use that?

~BT

[Deathscythe]

Meh, this movie felt way more like a Nightmare on Elm Street movie than a Friday the 13th movie.

[Nancy Thompson]

the movie was okay i mean i liked it but i wish they had better cast. i could not stand lori & will at all. god they where so boring!

[Rich]

Wait...Freddy died by fire, Jason by water. How can we use that?

~BT

They shouldn't have. That is what killed the movie.

[Dead Cell]

Alternate ending:

Will and Lori: "We did it! They're both dead!"

Officer: "Hold it right there! Hands up where I can see them!"

*The officer surveys the scene and sees the bodies of Linderman and Kia.*

Officer: "Oh dear lord..."

Lori: "Wait, no! It's not what it looks like!"

Officer: "Shut-up! Hands behind your backs! You just bought yourselves a decade in prison."

Of course, Lori's dad might bail her out somehow, but Will is just screwed. :D

[Mutant Leprechaun]

"One, two Freddy's coming for you... you know why they sing that? Because that's when he comes for you!"

:eek:

[Lammert]

The WORST Friday and NOES sequel....

[CanadianFonzie]

the one thing that keeps me watching is one name, Monica Keena

[CampNewBlood]

Betsy Palmer should have played Mrs. Voorhees. :(

[sCabbOy]

Easily the worst.

And Betsy wanted to be Mrs V, but apparently (according to her) she wasn't worth anything above SAG minimum (which I think is $250).

[Myers, Michael]

Meh, this movie felt way more like a Nightmare on Elm Street movie than a Friday the 13th movie.

That's what I was thinking the whole time I watched it the first time. Jason seemed more like he was just a plot device in Freddy's story.

"One, two Freddy's coming for you... you know why they sing that? Because that's when he comes for you!"

:eek:

That line was awful. They sing about coming for you and it means that's when he comes for you? Who woulda thought!

[Wheatjedi]

I can't believe nobody has yet praised the acting chops of Jason Ritter in this film! Let me be the first to say.... :D
ADDED:
the one thing that keeps me watching is one name, Monica Keena

I count her as two things.....

OH! ;)

[Shoesalesman]

"One, two Freddy's coming for you... you know why they sing that? Because that's when he comes for you!"

:eek:

Worst. Line. Ever.

I liked the battle scenes between Jason and Freddy, but Lori and Will had zero chemistry together. It was painful to watch them try to remember their lines, let alone occupy the same scene together.

The deaths at the corn field kegger were awsome, though. And the girl on the dock at the beginning who runs away from Jason is no slouch either. :shy:

[James M]

I rate this higher that Jason X, but that's about it. The Freddy/Jason fight scenes are decent, but that's all it has going for it.

To me, the whole thing seems like something out of a fan fiction story, except Ronny Yu seemed to know nothing about Jason. You can say Freddy had extra mental power because Jason was dreaming, but it's clear they were trying to say Jason feared water period. The way Freddy figures it out..it seems he discovered something Jason IS afraid of. And that's the problem. Jason wasn't afraid when he killed people from under water in in a couple of films, and he went right in the lake after Tommy in Jason Lives. So what's the deal? And why does Jason look so stupid in this film? A jacket and Frankenstein shoes?

Some of the movie is hard to watch. Keenan's acting, the way Freddy says "she's mine! miiiine!" (likely not Englund's fault, but the way Yu made him say it), and the whole scene of Mark's brother with Freddy's voice (more cringe-worthy acting).

[Just Jeans]

Besides the part 3 look, the FvJ design is my favorite. I absolutely love it. The jacket is what does it, I think. It's something I would have never thought to do, and I think it works brilliantly.

So what's the deal?

Subconscious fear. Freddy tapped into the little boy that is Jason Voorhees -- after all, if we assume he drowned as a child, then that mentality would have never had time to mature -- and he exploited that. He cut through the rage and the anger and tapped into a bit of Jason's psyche that we've never seen before.

The film never exploits Jason's fear of water outside of the dream world. He quite happily drifts off to sleep after Laurie throws his machete back in the lake, so it doesn't contradict previous continuity.

It's pretty clear that Jason's fear of water is deep-seeded and, in the waking world, superseded by his anger and the need to kill. I think it adds layers to the character that we've never seen before, because let's face it -- Jason's always been about as layered as a buzz cut. There was no substance beyond the killer.

The only bit that threw me off my footing was Laurie suddenly spouting, "Wait a minute, Freddy died by fire and Jason died by water... how can we use that?" The only thing that softens how staggering that moment is, is the fact that Laurie is drifting off to sleep, and sometimes just as we're falling to sleep we can add 2 to itself and come out with 86.

[sCabbOy]

I absolutely hated the jacket, undershirt, pants, boots, etc.

I thought it looked ridiculous. I personally wouldn't be caught in Hell wearing that outfit.

[Just Jeans]

I thought it was awesome. The whole thing really worked for me from head to toe. I didn't think it would when I saw it in photos, but in practice it worked brilliantly. It really looked like Jason just nabbed bits of clothing here and there, and was all suited up to be living in the wilderness.

[The Dream Master]

I've never had a strong opinion one way or the other with Jason's look in FvJ. I guess the thing that I have the most issues with is the height, but the look itself is alright. It was a nice mix between Jason's look in part three and six, in my opinion.

[Just Jeans]

CJ is my favorite Jason, but Ken has my favorite look. CJ in the Ken outfit would have been alright.

I wasn't so much put off by the height -- those damned boots didn't help -- but more by the way Ken carried himself. I'm not a Ken detractor -- I rather liked him, actually -- but I don't like the way Yu directed Ken in the role. I've always thought of Jason as monstrously tall anyway (because he was in Jason Lives, and that's the first one I saw).

[The Dream Master]

Come on, Jeans, Ken is teh suck. Kane rulez. :eek:

I think CJ is probably my second favorite Jason, with Ted White being my favorite.

[Myers, Michael]

I've never had a strong opinion one way or the other with Jason's look in FvJ. I guess the thing that I have the most issues with is the height, but the look itself is alright. It was a nice mix between Jason's look in part three and six, in my opinion.


Yeah I agree. The look was fine I just thought he was too tall in this movie. Can you imagine a Kane Hodder vs. Robert Englund FvsJ movie? I just don't think Ken felt like Jason. Not saying he did a horrible job but I just didn't think he pulled it off.

Sorry, not trying to turn this into a Kane vs. Ken thread.

[The Dream Master]

Sorry, not trying to turn this into a Kane vs. Ken thread.

Don't worry, I might have already unintentionally done that.

Yeah, I do wish sometimes that Kane would have had the chance to play Jason for sentimental reasons. I really felt bad for Kane because he fucking loves playing the character. However, at the end of the day he didn't fit the vision for the movie, so I respect that.

[Just Jeans]

Kane n' Ken can both eat me. I'm a CJ fella 100%. If we ever have another "Kane vs. Ken" thread, I'm adding a poll that only has CJ as an option. Ten times. :bang:

[Myers, Michael]

I liked Richard Brooker coolness in the role in 3D and Ted White's aggressiveness in TFC better then Kane, I just said him because he's the most recognized in the role for the past 15 years before FvsJ so that's the Jason most people, including myself, fighting Freddy.

[Darth Sinister]

I enjoyed "Freddy vs Jason". I didn't think it was bad at all. Sure, it seems more like a Nightmare film than a Jason film, but that's because there's more complexity to Freddy than Jason. Freddy has all this backstory that comes into play, whereas Jason can get by without it as seen in the third film. I didn't mind that acting, since neither film series has anything to write home about.

[D-Lo]

F vs J = Jason's second best 'look' (Part 7 is the best)

Pros:
*Lots of cool kills (bed folding in half, raver being tossed 40 ft in the air).
*The fact that Freddy and Jason finally fight.
*Lots of cool action and effects.
*Nudity.

Cons:
*Jason being afraid of water.
*Freddy owning Jason in hand to hand combat.
*Abundance of CGI cheese and poorly executed effects. (The dad's head being cut off, Freddypillar)
*Jason Ritter's acting.

Overall 4 - 4 (pros/cons) so it's not the top of my list for best F13th but it is better than parts 5, 9, and X.

[Toejam]

Jason's fear of water is an unconscious fear (the dude has spent a lot of time trapped underwater), one that he is able to work through in "normal" situations.
In F vs. J, Jason is only shown to be afraid of the water in the "dream world",( I'm afraid of Heights. I can usually work through it, but I have dreams where I'm
falling and they freak me out.) In the real world he is able to ignore this fear.

[Rick]

I think it's too much of a stetch that Jason is completely un-phased by water out side of a dream but a little falling water in the dream world stops him dead in his tracks.
It wasn't like Freddy was using the water to try and slow Jason down either, Jason just stops and Freddy is confused as hell and then realizes what's going on and begins to use it.
Then we go into a scene where Freddy is looking into Jason's subconscious mind and right there Jason is just walking through the water without a problem, he's even got a clost full of water where he throws his victims.
If it was a subconscious fear shouldn't it have been reflected in his subconscious mind then?
If it was written as a subconscious fear then it was very badly translated from script to screen.

[BlakeTyner]

Eesh, Rick, bringing up the unconscious is a pretty big can of worms.

First, we have to forget the pop-culture understanding of "conscious" and "unconscious" and understand the actual psychoanalytical definition of the unconscious. To do that, you've gotta talk Freud.

As simply as I can put it, Freud theorized that people are damaged very early on in their development. I'm sure you've heard the term "anal-retentive" before - Freud coined the term; it's a part of psychosexual development. First, there is the oral stage. This is what we're in at birth - our primary pleasure is understood as it relates to our mouth. We suckle for milk, stick our body parts in our mouth, put our baby rattles in there, etc. If you're damaged during this stage, in adulthood you become orally agressive and chew on pens, pencils, etc OR you become orally passive and smoke, kiss, etc.

After the oral stage, we move into the anal stage, then phallic, then latency, then (at puberty) genital. Damage at any stage, Freud postulated, resulted in that stage being forced into the unconscious and fixated throughout adulthood, so that some people are anal-retentive (obsessed with detail) or anal-expulsive (reckless.) Each stage has its own consequence of fixation.

At any rate, whatever damage we suffer early in life (ie as infants/children) leads to the creation of the unconscious, which is the repository for wounds, fears, guilty desires, and unresolved conflicts. The Oedipus complex comes into play here, as Freud thought that infants/children are in direct competition with their same-sex parent for the love and affection of their opposite sex parent. Little boys, upon learning that girls don't have a penis, think that they must behave or daddy will castrate them, too. Little girls, upon realizing that the penis is power, develop penis (power) envy.

The result of these repressed wounds, which exist in the unconscious, are defense mechanisms: selective perception, selective memory, denial, avoidance, displacement, and projection. Of these, we really want to focus on two of them - avoidance and displacement.

Jason obviously displays displacement, which is, simply, taking one's hurt or anger and, rather than placing it at the feet of the person responsible, displaces it onto another. Jason is really angry at the girl who killed his mother, but he displaces that anger onto other people. And kills them mercilessly.

(Here's where this gets into what you're saying)

Freddy vs. Jason attempted to show Jason avoiding that which wounded him early in life - water. And what's important to understand is that a Freudean understanding maintains that the unconscious is distinct from dreaming. Dreaming, however, is - as simply as I can put it - a window into the unconscious. One is actually more likely to use defense mechanisms (such as avoidance) in dreams, although they certainly can occur in the conscious mind (ie the real world.)

The unconscious is the Id. The conscious reality is the Ego. Both of those are always, always in competition with each other. The 'referee' so to speak is the Superego. The Superego determines which side wins any particular battle. In the case of Freddy vs. Jason, when Jason is in the dream world and is presented with the falling water, his Id immediately takes over (remember, the Id is the unconscious, and the unconscious is where repressed wounds are stored) and he stops. Whether the same thing happens in the real world is irrelevent - his Superego allows the Ego to win that battle.

Most of Freud's theories have been completely disregarded by modern psychologists, but they are still very important in the realm of literary criticism (see now why I got my degree in English and Psychology? I also did Religion, believe it or not.) A little later on, a guy named Lacan came along and added a whole new layer of complexity to psychoanalysis, the "mirror stage" - but I think I've bored y'all enough with the technical discussion. Maybe another day. Or, TDM could come in and fill you in on Lacan.

K, class dismissed.
~BT

[Rick]

Yah, that's way too deep to go into, especially for this (and most) movie. To watch and understand FvsJ you shouldn't have to go and do a bunch of research.
If it's supposed to be subconscious it should have been presented better and in a way that, on the surface, doesn't contradict every other movie and itself several seconds later as we see into Jason's subconscious and he's basically living in the lake surrounded by water.

[Lammert]

Reading this topic and knowing that FvsJ was so screwed makes me wish that they never made it!

Jason X is a multiple award winning movie compared to this...

[Just Jeans]

YTo watch and understand FvsJ you shouldn't have to go and do a bunch of research.

I didn't, and I understood it just fine. It's not hard to infer what Freddy is doing -- the "And dig a little deeper..." line is clearly as much metaphorical as it was literal, and then he flat out mentions looking for skeletons in Jason's closet.

I also think you're treating Jason's nightmare scape too literal. The swamp in his nightmare represents his subconscious suffering. It has little baring on Jason in the real world. As I pointed out above, when Jason comes out of the dream he quite happily stays in the lake after his fight with Freddy.

Really, you don't need to major in psychology to figure out what they were trying to do there -- give Jason a little bit of extra depth -- and I also see no reason why a character like Jason Voorhees couldn't be analyzed as deeply as any other literary character. Some people like to wax intellectual about Hamlet or Macbeth -- we as horror fans shouldn't be affraid to do the same with our icons. :)

[BlakeTyner]

God, I love Hamlet. For my money, there's never been a more developed character in all of literature. The Bard really outdid himself on that one.

And Jeans is absolutely right - there's nothing inherently inferior to a horror film compared to anything else. A film functions as a text just as much as Beowulf, Gilgamesh, or The Great Gatsby - one of my profs wrote a fascinating article that analyzed the motif of violence in Clint Eastwood's Unforgiven and Mystic River. The beauty of lit crit is that you can apply so many different lenses to a text - you can choose to examine authorial intent or ignore it completely. You can do a close reading, using only the text itself, or you can focus on the reader's (viewer's) response to the text. We can apply Freud to Jason, or to Ronnie Yu.

Or, we can do none of the above and enjoy art for art's sake. What's awesome is that we have the ability to choose from a broad spectrum of complexity - from just enjoying/hating a film for its aesthetic value all the way up to dissertation-length dissection.

~Blake

[WestinHillsDays]

That movie had so many bad scenes.

Marc trying to sound like Nancy in Dream Warriors and Lori passing out. Ugh.

[The Tall Man]

CJ is my favorite Jason, but Ken has my favorite look. CJ in the Ken outfit would have been alright.
Jeans, you know you almost got it?

New Line offered the Jason part to C.J. when they were looking for other Jasons... but C.J. turned them down because he didn't like what they were doing to Kane and would have no part in it.

T.M.

[D-Lo]

I was reading a website where this guy was reviewing F vs J. It touches on how Jason being afraid of water is misinterpreted by almost everyone who saw the movie. His take was something like (not an exact quote by any means): "Since when the hell has Jason been afraid of water? It's good to know that all you have to do to escape him is run though a sprinkler."
I guess the script was trying to convey some innate fear Jason has with his drowing (or near-drowning depending on how you look at films
(1-4). It just didn't come across at all in the actual film.

[Jigsaw]

FVJ is just okay IMO, but the filmmaking techniques used in it are very annoying, with the quick-cutting, color filters, slow and fast motion, etc. and the humor at times is way too over-the-top for me. The Freddy and Jason fight scenes are decent though and both characters are depicted well enough.

[Rick]

Jeans, you know you almost got it?

New Line offered the Jason part to C.J. when they were looking for other Jasons... but C.J. turned them down because he didn't like what they were doing to Kane and would have no part in it.

T.M.

Didn't CJ say that was false?
That while he didn't like what they were doing, he either wasn't actually offered (seeing as how he hasn't worked in the biz since Jason Lives) or simply not in the shape he needed to be in to do it.

[Autobotsdie]

I still don't like that they showed Jason being afraid of water as a sign of weakness.

[Dead Cell]

A film functions as a text just as much as Beowulf

Heh, reminds me. I gave a speech once about Friday the 13th for my english class and since we had read Beowulf earlier in the year, I made a comparison to it (that I'm sure my teacher was just *thrilled* with). Goes like this:

Grendel: Lives in a swamp. Enter his territory, you get eaten.
Beowulf shows up- kills Grendel.
Grendel's mom shows up! Goes after some revenge!

Reverse the roles of Jason and Mrs. Voorhees and you basically have the Beowulf story.

Mrs. Voorhees shows up! Goes after some revenge!
Campers show up- one manages to kills Mrs. Voorhees.
Jason lives around a lake (sometimes takes naps at the bottom). Enter his territory, you get killed. Goes after some revenge for his mama!

And Crazy Ralph was the Soothsayer from Julias Ceaser.

"It's got a death curse!"
"Beware the Ides of March!"

[Dave Dunwoody]

I guess the script was trying to convey some innate fear Jason has with his drowing (or near-drowning depending on how you look at films
(1-4). It just didn't come across at all in the actual film.It would've been really appreciated if Freddy had made some remark to indicate that he had unearthed a fear from Jason's subconscious.

As long as David Goyer hadn't written the line. He would've had Freddy turn to the camera and cackle "guess I just unearthed a fear from Jason's subconscious!"

[Shoesalesman]

That movie had so many bad scenes.

Marc trying to sound like Nancy in Dream Warriors and Lori passing out. Ugh.

I had forgotten about these fine gems. :rolleyes: Good call, Anderson! ;)

[D-Lo]

It would've been really appreciated if Freddy had made some remark to indicate that he had unearthed a fear from Jason's subconscious.

As long as David Goyer hadn't written the line. He would've had Freddy turn to the camera and cackle "guess I just unearthed a fear from Jason's subconscious!"

Haha. Actually if the line went like that it'd fit right in with most of the gems. Even if Freddy did something whimsical it would have still been in character and let the audience know what was going on in a more direct way.

[The Tall Man]

Didn't CJ say that was false?
I don't know anything about that. All I know is that there was an interview with him and he said what I mentioned above. I took it at face value, cause, you know it was an interview with him.

T.M.

[Rick]

I remember the claim being made a lot but I don't remember seeing an interview with him actually stating that.
I looked through CLM but didn't see anything either.
I know Kane has made that claim but I never saw CJ say it.

[Autobotsdie]

I still think its weird that they finally put 2 and 2 together and did some research to find out who Jason was. And notice it didn't take long to get to Crystal lake when they were taking Jason back to it. Makes you wonder how far apart Elm street and Crystal lake really are?

[CampNewBlood]

My favorite scene is the one where Freddy is pretending to be Pamela.

"Rise up Jason! Hear my voice, and live again!"

[The Tall Man]

Rick, I'm not claiming anything. I DID read that interview. Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And don't rely on CLM for EVERYTHING. They don't talk about the real story behind JGTH because no one involved will talk about it in public-- makes them look bad. Besides, I'm pretty sure I read the interview after CLM came out-- THAT, I am not certain about, however.

Autobots, Springwood's in Ohio. Crystal Lake's in New Jersey. Scenes were cut out of the final film making it seem like a short drive, but that's not the case.

T.M.

[CampNewBlood]

I really need to finish my CLM book. I up to ANB...a couple pages into it.

[Rick]

Rick, I'm not claiming anything. I DID read that interview. Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And don't rely on CLM for EVERYTHING. They don't talk about the real story behind JGTH because no one involved will talk about it in public-- makes them look bad. Besides, I'm pretty sure I read the interview after CLM came out-- THAT, I am not certain about, however.

Autobots, Springwood's in Ohio. Crystal Lake's in New Jersey. Scenes were cut out of the final film making it seem like a short drive, but that's not the case.

T.M.

Chill dude, I never called you a liar.
You made a post stating one thing, I responded with what I remember reading from posts in the old forum, CLM and various interviews.
Like i said, I never read anything where CJ said that, although others have said he did. I also know Kane has said it as well.
I also remember seeing somewhere (probably the old board) a post claiming CJ never said he turned the role down for that reason.
And I know enough not to rely on any one source for all of my info, it just so happens at the time I posted CLM was the resource I had closest at hand.
It's obvious from reading CLM that a lot of the people interviewed (although not all) limited their answers to the positives.

[James M]

Above all else, I kind of found Freddy Vs. Jason a big disappointment. Over a decade of waiting for it to be made, and when it comes, I felt like..."that's it?" I wonder if it would have been better if it were made around 1987/1988 like originally planned, or even in the 90s.

[Dead Cell]

Here's the thing: in addition to having an entire cast of cliche's running around, the hero of the story, Lori, is ineffective and weak. She's literally led around through the movie by everyone else. And just to be clear; not a bit of it is Monica Keenan's fault. She was given a crap role.

Her friends run her (non-existent) love life.
Her dad drugs her.
She's dragged off to a rave she didn't want to go to.
Will drags her all over town afterwards.
She's completely left out of the big secret hide-out meeting, because... SHE'S ASLEEP!
She could've been left out of the Westin Hills break-in for all she contributed.
Even when she goes after Freddy in the dream world, he's got her pinned and helpless in minutes.
During the fight Kia distracts Freddy and gets herself killed, so Lori and Will can get away. They do bail on Kia, but stick around to watch the rest of the fight anyway.
And whose idea was it to start spraying the dock and propane tanks with gas? Thanks, Will!

The basic premise of the movie to have Freddy and Jason fight each other really hurt Lori. It took her right out of the equation. Then, to see how she's just along for the ride with everything else happening, it doesn't give her many opportunities to stand-out as a hero.

Yeah, Freddy killed her mom. But if Mark had survived to the end, it could've just as easily been a movie about avenging his brother and proving to everyone that he didn't commit suicide. And I actually *liked* Mark.

[The Tall Man]

Dead Cell, you make an excellent point...

But on the other hand, it's FREDDY VS. JASON. I'm there to see Freddy and Jason fight... not warrior women.

(well, maybe a little)

T.M.

[Lammert]

I agree with James M, this should have been made in the late 80's or early 90's... perhaps then it would have had a decent and logical storyline.

[Rich]

Tall Man took the words right out of my mouth. I think Lori's character did get her just do though. I mean, the whole sub-plot revolved around her and what Freddy did, but others thought her father did and so on and so fourth.

These kind of movies simply can not please all fans. It is impossable, because this is the kind of senerio that everyone walks into with their own version of what they think the story should be, myself included.

My version of the Freddy vs. Jason story is basically this:

Freddy murders all the children of Springwood and all the adults are dead. It is officially a ghost town. In order to survive and him not haveing to go to hell, he needs to take more victims, more souls, and spread more fear.

Camp Crystal Lake has been closed and condemned for many years now, due to all the murders. Some people believe in the Jason ghost stories, while others think it is sick people trying to give the legend reality. Either way people are affraid to go out at night alone. They are affraid to do almost anything alone becsue the the dark history.

Freddy feels the fear level of those in Crystal Lake and there are fresh and new children to murder. A couple kids are found dead in their bed, and automatically the people of Crystal Lake believe it is Jason (or someone) again.

A lynch part goes off into the woods to hunt for whoever is doing this with the "we aren't taking this shit anymore" kind of attitudes. None of them come back.

Jason gets so pissed that people would not leave him alone and they came and invaded his turf, he leaves the woods and actually seeks revenge on the whole town instead of just the camp grounds now.

Basically what would happen is, Jason would enter the home of someone and he would be about to put the machete through someone, but when he lifts their bed sheets, he notices that they are already dead. He sees four claw marks on each of his would be victims that someone else already murdered.

The last person Jason would go to murder would wake up, holding onto Freddy bringing him out of the dream and into reality, and then Jason and Freddy would actually see each other for the first time. Then the battle would begin.

Of course that is my Freddy vs. Jason. I have to realize that the movie that was made was someone else's idea of the story. I think for what it was, and especially compairing it to some of the other scripts, it was the best one we were going to get.

[Utellme]

Jason's look was blah but ive seen far worst clothing for Jason films before part 6.Movie was ok fast paced loved the fight scene and Jason winning at the end

[The New Blood]

I think this movie is pretty bad. The atmosphere is not my style. The characters act lame as hell. Jason acts like some kind of Frankenstein creature and Freddy only kills 1 person. Way to screw up the main characters of the movie. If Freddy had killed atleast 4 people and Jason was more like he was in part 7, it would have pretty much saved the movie for me. I dunno, the movie is just lame. Hopefull they make a FvJ 2, and make it much more dark and hardcore.

[Rich]

Jason's look was blah

I'm not sure what you mean by "blah."

ive seen far worst clothing for Jason films before part 6

Like what? Freddy vs. Jason is the absolute worst Jason wardrobe ever.

fast paced loved the fight scene and Jason winning at the end

The fight scene was okay, but I wish Jason got off more hits then he did. Also, as far as Jason winning, I tend to believe that too because I am biased, but it is really left up to interpretation. You could say that the ending was all a dream. I will not say that...but you could. :p

The atmosphere is not my style. The characters act lame as hell. Jason acts like some kind of Frankenstein creature

I agree with everything there. The comic book atmosphere was not my style either. I did enjoy it and it was the atmosphere they wanted to achive, but it just is not my first choice. The characters were pretty dumb. I only liked the police characters in this one really. Freeburg was cool too. Jason basically is Frankenstein creature in this one. It seems to me that that was done on purpose. I think Ronny may see Jason as a modern Frankenstein monster since he likes the old Universal monsters.

Freddy only kills 1 person

That I actually did not mind. Freddy got the bulk of the story so Jason got the bulk of the body count.

Hopefull they make a FvJ 2

Personally I don't want any more versus movies. I am hoping they got that idea out of their system with Freddy vs. Jason and are ready to do real installments again. Then again, if the legal bs doesn't stop you may just get your wish, because it might be the only think New Line legally can do at this point.

[The Tall Man]

Rich, where the hell were you in the late 90's when all those shitty FvsJ scripts were written??!?!?

As to Freddy's one kill: "He may get the blood, but I'll get the glory!"

T.M.

[Rich]

Rich, where the hell were you in the late 90's when all those shitty FvsJ scripts were written??!?!?

:lmao:

I am, no doubt, one of those kind of people who love to write fan stories, but the company would never ever consider.

Thanks for the compliment anyhow. :)

[Dead Cell]

Dead Cell, you make an excellent point...

But on the other hand, it's FREDDY VS. JASON. I'm there to see Freddy and Jason fight... not warrior women.

(well, maybe a little)

Hehe, well yeah, and I was never saying Lori should get too involved with the big fight between Freddy and Jason or anything like that. I was mostly looking at her role in the rest of the story and how she interacted with everyone. I still scoff at the scene where she breaks down crying in school, because the nightmare she's remembering was just *so* traumatic.
The heroes of every single last Elm Street never blubbered like that. And I think in real life most people would shrug it off as some super freaky, crazy nightmare and go about their day. At that point in the story Lori had no reason to think it was anything else.
Nevermind that a guy was brutally murdered in her house the night before. She's stressed out by a nightmare.

[Darth Sinister]

Yeah, but she's four years removed from her mother's death which still weighs upon her.

[The Tall Man]

The heroes of every single last Elm Street never blubbered like that.
Yes, but people are far more pussified today than they were back then. I bought it as a representative performance because I know girls who are like that now.

T.M.

[Killa Pimp]

I really didn't care about the film as a whole.

There were a few good kills, but basically it was a late summer popcorn flick.

I am just bewildered that after the money it made, they didn't spit out a few a sequels and prequels of the individual franchises to capitalize on it.

It was like New Line was "scared" of the success of the movie and had no idea of what to do next.

[Lammert]

The camp didn't even look like Crystal Lake... I just hate the movie... it ruined it all..

[Ron]

i think the biggest downfall of this movie is that it was made too cartoonish or comic book-ish.

[Autobotsdie]

If they do a part 2 then they need to make more of an 80's feeling to it.

[The Tall Man]

Hahaha... you guys had just better hope they don't do an FvsJ 2... New Line is run by a bigger bunch of idiots than back then now. Jeff Katz left because of that. New Line wanted to release FvsJ2 DTV.

Bob Shaye's no longer hands-on with production. He'll consult if they ask, but that's about it.

80's style FvsJ? Hahahahhaahha! Not with this crowd of dumbasses.

T.M.

[Autobotsdie]

At least it wuld be good for the hardcore fans.

[Ron]

Hahaha... you guys had just better hope they don't do an FvsJ 2... New Line is run by a bigger bunch of idiots than back then now. Jeff Katz left because of that. New Line wanted to release FvsJ2 DTV.

Bob Shaye's no longer hands-on with production. He'll consult if they ask, but that's about it.

80's style FvsJ? Hahahahhaahha! Not with this crowd of dumbasses.

T.M.

yeah, bob shaye is pretty much the bread and butter of greatness when it comes to new line...except for with alone in the dark:side:

[Rick]

Who knows what they'll do now.
There doesn''t seem to be any word on the F13th remake and (i think it was) Was Reviews who siad FvsJ2 was always in the cards. As Tall Man pointed out it was supposed to go DTV, but with no momentum on either franchise there was a slight possibility that it could go theatrical.

[Dead Cell]

Yes, but people are far more pussified today than they were back then. I bought it as a representative performance because I know girls who are like that now.

Hm... okay. But I still don't like her. :D

[Ron]

I like that word "pussified". it's so...scientific!:p

[Just Jeans]

New Line offered the Jason part to C.J. when they were looking for other Jasons... but C.J. turned them down because he didn't like what they were doing to Kane and would have no part in it.

I still don't understand the "what they did to Kane" angle. They just didn't ask him back. They didn't murder a family member or something. :X

In any case, I've never heard this. The only comments I've ever read from C.J. was that he was never asked back after Jason Lives, even though he wanted to return for the seventh film. I suppose it's a matter of "pick your rumor". :lol:

Rick, I'm not claiming anything. I DID read that interview. Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Sorry, Tall, but given that you're the one who has read the interview, the burden of proof is yours, not ours. :err:

[The Tall Man]

And since when do I go around lying about shit, Jeans? You don't want to believe me, fine.

T.M.

[The New Blood]

After watching this along with Jason X yesterday. I now officially believe that Freddy vs Jason is the worst one in the series.

[Deathscythe]

You think it's even worse than Jason takes Manhattan?

[Just Jeans]

Nothing is worse than Jason Takes Manhattan. QED.

And since when do I go around lying about shit, Jeans?

You don't.

You don't want to believe me, fine.

I do believe you read an interview with C.J., but that's not my point. My point is that Rick questioned your source and you jumped on him. All you had to do is quote your source or point him in the direction of the interview you read. You didn't. The burden of proof remains yours.

There's no need to get hostile simply because another poster heard differently from you. Just point out your source and wait for the person you're discussing/debating with to have a look-see. Easy-peasy.

[The New Blood]

You think it's even worse than Jason takes Manhattan?

yes, its worse than any of them IMO. Jason doesn't even act anything like he did in any of the other movies. I hate the characters the most though.

[CampNewBlood]

Yea. In Fvs.J, it seems like it's all Jason can do to move or walk around. He's slower than Michael Myers. No drive at all.

[Just Jeans]

I thought Jason was perfectly in character, they just added a bit more depth to the walking tornado that is Jason Voorhees.

Still not keen on the way Yu directed Ken in the role, but that's more to do with aesthetics and less to do with characterization.

[BlakeTyner]

I actually prefer this version of Jason to any other, though I don't know why. I used to be a real Kane loyalist, and I still think he did a great job, but Ken's Jason is my favorite.

~Blake

[Just Jeans]

Ken could have been my favorite, and in fact for a while I thought he was, but the more I watched the film the more I wish that Yu would have directed Ken slightly different. He had his moments (like the fight with Freddy, particularly as the fight begins in the burning boat house) but earlier in the film he was just too relaxed.

In terms of characterization, he does rank high for me. I liked the slightly sad way Ken emoted with his eyes.

[Kane Lives]

I was let down quite a bit by this film.

I did like the set up of flipping the circumstances of Freddy's Dead, and having the town be in control of Freddy rather than him being in control of the town; and he needs to resurrect Jason to be involved in some way. In that respect, I think the intentions were good. I was glad to see that they didn't try to rip off New Nightmare or make Jason a Hero in the film.

On the downside though, the acting was just too ridiculous for my tastes and the style was too silly. I really resented the new rule of the "Freddy myth" that was applied to this film and Ronny's new vision for Jason. Also, Freddy not having enough victims and Jason not having enough purpose and screen time also nagged at me throughout. I wasn't a fan of the whole who killed Lori's Mom angle either. Honestly, I just didn't care. lol And I didn't care for the all the verbal cheap shots at Freddy in the film.

My favorite part I guess would be when Freddy and Jason finally stopped dancing around and really tore into one another on the dock at the end. It finally got really raw and bloody. That whole exchange was what I had been waiting to see these guys do to one another for years.

[SmiTheReeNs*]

Ive been waitin for this film for years..i remember when it was back in '95 it was rumored to be made, and it took so many years to actually make it happen..they really shyted on Jason..right from the start im like wtf is he wearin? hes walkin slow as hell:eek: and the ending really pissed me off..there is no way Jason shoulda got beatin up as he did those Freddy matrix moves got really outta control..and im not being biased..I really liked Jason gettin his last licks in as usual poppin up in the CCL :saw::freddy: with his own glove

[Dead Cell]

I was thinking about that whole rule; you have to know about Freddy in order for him to enter your nightmare. Breaking it down:

Elm Street 1:
Tina didn't know who Freddy was per se, but she knew about the old jump-rope rhyme, 1, 2 Freddy's coming for you. And she expected Nancy to know about that rhyme, so there you go. Seemed like Freddy Krueger was fairly common knowledge in part 1.

Elm Street 2:
Woo! The rule is broken by part 2! Jesse Walsh has just moved to town! His boxes aren't even unpacked and already he's having nightmares about Freddy. Guess that clears that up. But let's keep going anyway.

Elm Street 3:
During one of their group sessions, Taryn asks, "Who is he?" Nancy replies, "His name is Fred Krueger," and proceeds to explain what he did and what he's doing now. Boom! Two in a row!

Elm Street 4:
We have the returning characters from 3 and Kristen makes it a big point to tell everyone about Freddy. Everyone except... Sheila! That's right! Sheila never got the whole story about Freddy!

Elm Street 5:
Alice takes it upon herself to tell everyone about Freddy. Of course... Jacob was still unborn, so there's no way in hell he could've known about Freddy.

Freddy's Dead:
Well this one seems fairly easy. After John got amnesia he couldn't remember why he was running from Springwood; only that he had to get away. So upon returning, John didn't know Freddy, Tracy didn't, Carlos didn't, Spencer didn't. We're on a roll here.

So out of 6 movies we have at LEAST 5 that don't follow this new rule. Oh yeah, and I'm pretty sure Jason Voorhees had no idea who Freddy was, but he was able to get into his dreams too. So within the context of their own movie they break the rule. I'd say that's enough to declare this rule that you must know about Freddy before he can invade your dreams officially Myth-Busted!

[Autobotsdie]

IMO if Kane Hodder would've played Jason I think it would've been better because he has a way of makeing Jason look scary without even trying.

[The Tall Man]

All you had to do is quote your source or point him in the direction of the interview you read. Just point out your source and wait for the person you're discussing/debating with to have a look-see. Easy-peasy.
It's not easy-peasy to me because... I can't remember.

That was years ago. I have enough trouble remembering eight minutes ago, let alone When I read something I don't say to myself "I need to remember where this is." I say "Hmm... this is interesting. I bet somebody'd like to hear about it in future." I just remember the info, never the source (unless it's like B.D., then I dismiss it right away cause 9 times out of 10 they made it up on a slow news day).

If it came off like I jumped on Rick, that wasn't my intention because when I jump on somebody, you'd know it. Remember, fighting online is like competing in a race at the special olympics... even if you win, you're still retarded. :D

Kane, they did however set Jason up as the lesser of two evils. If you'll notice in the opening, Freddy's hell is that he's unable to kill anyone. Jason's hell however is that he is forced to kill people for eternity. There's a clear demarcation on who the real baddie is.

T.M.

[BlakeTyner]

Ultimately, I think what we're dealing with is this: most of us here trust each other to have accurate memories about things, and so in most cases someone's word is good enough. However, sometimes, people misremember things - not saying that's what happened here. When that happens, any of us can basically call shenanigans and ask for a cite. The claimant then is responsible for the burden of proof. If one can't dig up a cite, then by all means, say so, but until there is one we simply cannot accept the disputed information as factual. Has nothing to do with personalities, but unfortunately on the internets we're unable to read body language and tone, and things get blown all out of proportion.

~Blake

[Joshg]

I used to love this movie.
But the more I watched it, the more I came to terms with "this is truly a terrible film!" I hate to say it, but it is. Blech,

The story jumps too quickly, and characters are for the most part unlikeable, and the scoring is on about a D. 4/10 I think I liked JGTH more.

[CampNewBlood]

I wonder why they always have tp have 2 people survive in these later incarnations of horror films? They always used to have just the girl survive. Now she has a to have a boyfriend with her.

Rediculous.

[JVY2K]

I wonder why they always have tp have 2 people survive in these later incarnations of horror films? They always used to have just the girl survive. Now she has a to have a boyfriend with her.

Rediculous.

If done well, a love story usually always strengthens a story. Only in the F-13's, the love stories were really never have great. The only one that really interests me is Tommy/Megan and Steven/Jessica. I felt Lori and Will were very weak characters in FvsJ. Same can be said for Rennie and Sean. Tina and Nick were pretty good together but still nothing amazing.

I felt though that when they started doing this, it took away from the scariness of the film. There's something to be said about one lone character alone in the woods fighting off a relentless killer. You really felt the fear of Alice, Ginny, Chris and Tommy/Trish. Trish especially not only having to fight off Jason but protect her little brother. When this changed, that feeling was lost as the main character had someone else to comfort them and help them through the experience. In the earlier films, they were helpless and alone and that played heavily into the fear and emotion of the audience.

[Ron]

I wonder why they always have tp have 2 people survive in these later incarnations of horror films? They always used to have just the girl survive. Now she has a to have a boyfriend with her.

Rediculous.

I don't think you remember friday the 13th two. Ginny and Paul both survived.

[Kane Lives]

Kane, they did however set Jason up as the lesser of two evils. If you'll notice in the opening, Freddy's hell is that he's unable to kill anyone. Jason's hell however is that he is forced to kill people for eternity. There's a clear demarcation on who the real baddie is.

T.M.

I was just glad they didn't have him become some obedient guard dog for the teens like some of the other scripts did. I didn't resent the idea much of presenting Freddy as more evil in the subtext of the movie, as long as Jason was still presented as the killer he always had been.

Because in life, Freddy was certainly more evil than Jason.

[Nancy Thompson]

The movie use to be my 3rd fav in ANOES series and my 4th fav in F13th series but now its getting old and that bitch Lori makin me hate the movie.

[Ron]

jason ritter was also pretty terrible as well.

[Wheatjedi]

jason ritter was also pretty terrible as well.

Yes, he was. So was Monica Keena. In fact, I really didn't like any of the performances in this film other than Englund as Freddy.

[Ron]

i wanted to slap the shit out of that dude that played Mark.

[Wheatjedi]

As did I. I swear.... whoever cast this film has terrible taste. I saw better performances from the drama club in high school.

[girlychaos]

Yes, he was. So was Monica Keena. In fact, I really didn't like any of the performances in this film other than Englund as Freddy.

Even though Monica Keena is my avatar, I do agree 100%. I like the movie, but the performances are just horrible.

[Wheatjedi]

Yeah.... the basic story idea wasn't bad. The performances just really stunk up the joint.

[girlychaos]

Exactly...I liked it, I did. But it would've been a lot better if the cast wasn't so bad.

[Mr. Undertaker]

you said it.... but i still like it after all, great killings

[Autobotsdie]

I'm watching it now on USA and I hate it when they edit the good stuff out of it.

[Jigsaw]

Same here. That's why I never bother watching certain films when they air on broadcast stations, I hate the edits that are made.

[The Tall Man]

I seriously thought Katharine Isabelle played her character--a ditzy lush-- fairly well and still wish she wound up as the heroine instead of stupid ol' Lori.

T.M.

[Autobotsdie]

Not me I wanted the stoner to get the last laugh.

[CampNewBlood]

Same here. That's why I never bother watching certain films when they air on broadcast stations, I hate the edits that are made.

Me either. It just ruins the whole movie.

[Rich]

Kip was a cool character. I thought Lori was damn hott though!

[Autobotsdie]

Yeah especially when she is dreaming and is standing in front of her house and you could see right through the bottom part of her dress.

[girlychaos]

I think she could've been a better character though.

[Ron]

I think she could've been a better character though.

Couldn't they have all?

[The New Blood]

This movie is so bad its nearly unwatchable IMO.

[CanadianFonzie]

indeed, an insult to Jason's tallents, it really over exadurated(wow the spelling of that word completely slipped my head) them, but Freddy...was Freddy, lol

[CampNewBlood]

I don't think you remember friday the 13th two. Ginny and Paul both survived.

They did? That's why it only shows Ginny at the end? I know people have their own views at to what happens to Paul, but whether he lived or not is debatable.

And as far as Ken as Jason in FvsJ, might as well had Boris Karloff playing Jason. Looked and acted like Frankenstein.

[MaDMaNMaRz]

Kip was a cool character. I thought Lori was damn hott though!

Agreed about Lori. She was kind of annoying, but her looks saved her. :D

[girlychaos]

Couldn't they have all?

Yeah....sure! But I expected more from her somehow.

[El Rooto]

I liked FvsJ...but that's just me...sorta.

[Deathscythe]

I seriously thought Katharine Isabelle played her character--a ditzy lush-- fairly well and still wish she wound up as the heroine instead of stupid ol' Lori.

T.M.


I agree with Katharine Isabelle acting. Infact I think her and Englund were easily the best actors in this movie.

And I don't care what anyone says, I'd do Gibb over Lori anyday.:p

[Autobotsdie]

Only because you could get Gibb drunk before screwing her.

[BlakeTyner]

Oh I'd wreck Gibb. Lori, not so much. But that Gibb is a prime candidate for the hucklebuck.

~Blake

[Autobotsdie]

Gibb is a tomboy in which you can hand out with while Lori is a goodie goodie who you wouldn't mind trying to corrupt.

[Scarecrow]

Never had much problem with the characters, certainly liked Linderman and Kelly Rowland wasn't that bad, she actually went from seemingly being just a bitch to showign she just had her own insecurities and ultimatly being rather nice.


- Scarecrow

[Rich]

I agree with Scarecrow about Kelly's character. She was mean as a result of having a very real teenage issue that both boys and girls suffer from, hating what they see in the mirror. That is why she was inquiring so much info on nose jobs and such. When Lidrman finally stood up to her at the rave, I think she was turned on to him there, because she showed signs of being a man and not one of those little leg humping dogs that she called him earlier on in the movie. I think for all this movie's flaws, it still has a lot going on for it. I think the social commentary about today's society using the Hypnocil in verifying the fact that America is a "Prozac Nation" was genious.

[SmiTheReeNs*]

I gotta say my favorite part of the movie was when Jason was slashing @ the rave party!:funky::jason: i was rewinding that scene for days..

[Autobotsdie]

My favorite part was when Freddy relizes he is in the real world and Jason is heading towards him and Freddy is like "Aww Shit!"

[girlychaos]

I gotta say my favorite part of the movie was when Jason was slashing @ the rave party!:funky::jason: i was rewinding that scene for days..

I liked that part too.

[SmiTheReeNs*]

My favorite part was when Freddy relizes he is in the real world and Jason is heading towards him and Freddy is like "Aww Shit!"

I liked that scene too..Jason FINALLY had the upper hand after watching Jason get toyed in the dream world

[Scarecrow]

Followed of course by Jason's awesome burst of speed as he runs Freddy through the side of the building. :p


- Scarecrow

[Autobotsdie]

One thing I'm confused about is how at the begining of the file we find Jason half buried in the dirt. How did that happen? Assuming that its left off from JGH then how did Jason get his mask back when the last scene we see for JGH is Freddy pulling the mask under the ground.

[The Tall Man]

Autobots, that's a good question, particularly considering that they shot NEW footage of Freddy dragging Jason's mask underground that was cut from the final edit (but retained for TV spots).

T.M.

[Deathscythe]

Never had much problem with the characters, certainly liked Linderman and Kelly Rowland wasn't that bad, she actually went from seemingly being just a bitch to showign she just had her own insecurities and ultimatly being rather nice.


- Scarecrow

I hated how Kelly pulled a Busta Rhymes on Freddy by insulting him, now theres one person that Freddy should have gotten to kill.

[Kane Lives]

I hated how Kelly pulled a Busta Rhymes on Freddy by insulting him, now theres one person that Freddy should have gotten to kill.


I totally agree.

If he had to take that horrible speech from Kia, he should have gotten to gut her.... Nightmare 2 pool party style :freddy:

[The Tall Man]

Kane, but Freddy SAW Jason behind her halfway through her tirade and just let her go because he knew she was gonna get hers.

Interestingly, in the script it goes that Kia marches up to Jason and gives the old Nancy "I'm not afraid of you. I take back all the energy I gave you" spiel. Jason just looks at her and Freddy barks "Wrong one, bitch" after which Jason machetes her.

T.M.

[Rich]

I loved the rave slashing as well. I also really loved Trey getting sliced in bed and then Jason folding the bed in half.

[girlychaos]

Those were probably my two favorite parts.

[The New Blood]

I thought the rave massacre sucked. Every slice causes blood to squirt 5 feet in the air. The worst part is when the guy is yelling "you big, stupid, mother...." while throwing beer at Jason and gets slashed(even though Jason actually struck the beer keg not the guy). That was so rediculous. I'm sure this guy would really be standing there throwing beer at a guy who is killing everyone in sight, and coming straight at him. Rediculous! As is the rest of this shitfest........

[Kane Lives]

Kane, but Freddy SAW Jason behind her halfway through her tirade and just let her go because he knew she was gonna get hers.

T.M.


I know he saw Jason behind her, but I still wanted to see Freddy kill her himself. After that long, insulting rant toward Freddy, it would have been a much more satisfying payoff for me to see Freddy get the kill rather than just having Jason show up and do it for him.

Jason stealing Gibb away from him was alright because, that one was central to the plot; to piss Freddy off. But, I didn't like the thing with Kia.



I also really loved Trey getting sliced in bed and then Jason folding the bed in half.


That was probably my favorite part of the film actually, other than the battle on the dock.

[Deathscythe]

I thought Gibbs death was kinda weak. Even through she died in reality shouldn't she have felt pain in her dream? She didn't seem hurt at all.

[Autobotsdie]

The way Gibbs died sucked. I wanted Freddy to get her and not Jason. It would have been interesting if Freddy did get Gibbs and that guy that was making out with her while she was passed out at the same time.

[The Tall Man]

I absolutely LOVE Freddy's disgust as Gibb's blood splatters all in his face.

T.M.

[Rich]

I thought the battle on the docked sucked big time. That happened in reality, and Jason should have kicked the holy hell out of Freddy.

[The New Blood]

I thought the battle on the docked sucked big time. That happened in reality, and Jason should have kicked the holy hell out of Freddy.

I agree. Jason looked so pathetic crawling on the ground while Freddy was hitting his back with the machete. It was so pathetic. Jason wasn't that weak since part 2.

[SmiTheReeNs*]

I thought the battle on the docked sucked big time. That happened in reality, and Jason should have kicked the holy hell out of Freddy.

For once we agree on something Rich..that fight totally ticked me off..there was noway Jason shoulda had any struggle against Freddy..:eek: I woulda loved to see Jason teleport here..especially when he was landing them blows that made freddy fly across the docks..that woulda been a great tactic to what Freddy did to Jason in the dream world with that pinball bullshyt

[Deathscythe]

You guys have to consider Jason had already taken a beaten in the dream world and was probably weakened out, Freddy doesn't take damage in the dream world so he was still at full power.

[Rick]

I think the real issue with the final fight wasn't that Jason was tired but that the end of the movie needed to have an action sequence that lasted more than 30 seconds.
As soon as Jason hit Freddy it should have been all over, Jason would have put a fist through him or cleaved him in two.
Making it longer by having Freddy use the welding canisters as torpedoes, the metal bars to impale him and the cement mixer to crush his skull was a good idea.
And I guess you can say that Jason was not at full speed or strength after that beating but to have him take a beating by Freddy with his claw and Jason's machete was just a little much.

[Kane Lives]

I just liked the dock sequence because all the coreographed moves and wire work had ended, and it was just the two of them hacking into one another, tearing out eyes, ripping off limbs, etc.

I agree introducing the construction equipment was a good idea. The problem with Freddy and Jason fighting in reality is that Freddy is severely weakened in that situation. Even when Jason goes to the dream world, he is very much outmatched, but not weakened. So, Freddy needed something to beat Jason down with, since direct physical attacks weren't going to cut it.


I didn't really have a problem with the finale of the film. I thought they did a pretty good job of showing that before the construction equipment was introduced, Freddy physically stood no chance against Jason. He tries to duke it out with him, and was knocked back about 100 feet. lol

It was only after the flying cannisters, the cement mixer, and that huge cart of dirt that Freddy was able to have any success physically against Jason. He used his wits to disarm him and to take him down on the dock; not body slam or tackle him. After the beating Jason took earlier, it didn't seem so far fetched for me. Plus, Jason did get his comeback by punching into Freddy and ripping his arm off. I'm among the fans who feel that even though Freddy can now sustain damage in the real world, he still isn't exactly human. So, I think he can take a pretty brutal beating in reality before he dies. Barring an explosion or a decapitation.


But, I would have liked to see Jason have more offense however. I think there were too many instances where they got carried away with how much faster Freddy is than Jason, and had Freddy get in too many quick shots on him. I think Jason should have kicked him while he was down, stepped on his back, smashed his head against a tree, or something to show more aggression. And Freddy should have sold the blows he took from Jason better IMO.


I think Freddy should have limped more and gotten slower over the course of the fight. Also, struggled his way up the side of the construction site while Jason shook it to try and knock him down, rather than just appearing up there.

I certainly would have shown more battle damage on Freddy during the dock scene; almost like a mutilated corpse that keeps fighting. When Jason first begins to hack into him with the machete.. maybe have guts hanging out, ribs exposed and broken, with Freddy desperately gasping for air. Just more to show that Freddy was actually in trouble this time and that the tables had turned with Jason in control.

[The Tall Man]

Psh. I think the battles are perfect... and the greatest fight ever put on film.

T.M.

[Deathscythe]

Pfft...I liked Alice vs. Freddy in The Dream Master better.

[Darth Sinister]

Kane, but Freddy SAW Jason behind her halfway through her tirade and just let her go because he knew she was gonna get hers.

Interestingly, in the script it goes that Kia marches up to Jason and gives the old Nancy "I'm not afraid of you. I take back all the energy I gave you" spiel. Jason just looks at her and Freddy barks "Wrong one, bitch" after which Jason machetes her.

T.M.

That would've been funny as hell.

[Autobotsdie]

I have to agree that with all that Freddy hit Jason with in reality that it slowed Jason down a bit plus you have to remember that Jason has never faced someone like Freddy before with the same amount of strength and abilites as him.

[Rick]

I just liked the dock sequence because all the coreographed moves and wire work had ended, and it was just the two of them hacking into one another, tearing out eyes, ripping off limbs, etc.

I agree introducing the construction equipment was a good idea. The problem with Freddy and Jason fighting in reality is that Freddy is severely weakened in that situation. Even when Jason goes to the dream world, he is very much outmatched, but not weakened. So, Freddy needed something to beat Jason down with, since direct physical attacks weren't going to cut it.


I didn't really have a problem with the finale of the film. I thought they did a pretty good job of showing that before the construction equipment was introduced, Freddy physically stood no chance against Jason. He tries to duke it out with him, and was knocked back about 100 feet. lol

It was only after the flying cannisters, the cement mixer, and that huge cart of dirt that Freddy was able to have any success physically against Jason. He used his wits to disarm him and to take him down on the dock; not body slam or tackle him. After the beating Jason took earlier, it didn't seem so far fetched for me. Plus, Jason did get his comeback by punching into Freddy and ripping his arm off. I'm among the fans who feel that even though Freddy can now sustain damage in the real world, he still isn't exactly human. So, I think he can take a pretty brutal beating in reality before he dies. Barring an explosion or a decapitation.


But, I would have liked to see Jason have more offense however. I think there were too many instances where they got carried away with how much faster Freddy is than Jason, and had Freddy get in too many quick shots on him. I think Jason should have kicked him while he was down, stepped on his back, smashed his head against a tree, or something to show more aggression. And Freddy should have sold the blows he took from Jason better IMO.


I think Freddy should have limped more and gotten slower over the course of the fight. Also, struggled his way up the side of the construction site while Jason shook it to try and knock him down, rather than just appearing up there.

I certainly would have shown more battle damage on Freddy during the dock scene; almost like a mutilated corpse that keeps fighting. When Jason first begins to hack into him with the machete.. maybe have guts hanging out, ribs exposed and broken, with Freddy desperately gasping for air. Just more to show that Freddy was actually in trouble this time and that the tables had turned with Jason in control.
I agree, as fast as Freddy was Jason still shouldn't have been quite as slow as they portrayed.
Freddy definitely isn't human in the real world, but he does exhibit supernatural powers, I just think he should have relied more on his surroundings even during the dock fight because Jason should not have been that beaten up that long.

[The Tall Man]

Kay-Em beat his ass pretty well. Freddy shouldn't have done any less.

T.M.

[Scarecrow]

As others keep saying, doesn't eally matter what Freddy did because, for the mos part, Jason shrugged it off. Yet everything Jason did really damaged Freddy... one punch knocked him miles. WOuld everyone really want a final fight consisting of Freddy running away constantly?


- Scarecrow

[Lammert]

Camp Crystal Lake also looked like just a beach with a dock.

They also should have gone with the Pinhead ending in hell "gentlemen, what seems to be the problem?". That would have been more classic.

[Deathscythe]

No. The ending should have been Jason and Freddy team up to kill Lori, Will, and Kia. And than they kill everyone at New Line Cinema and go to a pub to celebrate their victory. ;)

[sCabbOy]

I'm actually glad they did not use the Pinhead ending.

[Scarecrow]

I'm actually glad they did not use the Pinhead ending.

Me too. It idn't even make any sense and messes with the Hellraiser mythology even more than it does the F13th/NOES ones.


- Scarecrow

[Rich]

Interestingly, in the script it goes that Kia marches up to Jason and gives the old Nancy "I'm not afraid of you. I take back all the energy I gave you" spiel. Jason just looks at her and Freddy barks "Wrong one, bitch" after which Jason machetes her.

I would have liked to see that.

[Lammert]

Me too. It idn't even make any sense and messes with the Hellraiser mythology even more than it does the F13th/NOES ones.


- Scarecrow

True, but since FvsJ was a mess already it doesn't mather to me. ;)

[Darth Sinister]

Jason got fuckin' owned by a 12 year old. So Freddy hitting Jason repeatedly with the machete and his claw isn't much of a stretch. So long as Freddy kept up the barage, he was hoping that he could wear Jason down. Jason has never fought anyone who was capable of fighting like this, at this point in his life. And as mentioned, since Kay-em whupped on him before the worst of his injuries were inflicted shows that he can be beaten. It just takes a lot.

As to the ending, I think they should've gone with Lori and Will making love. But instead of Will turning into Freddy, we see a restored Jason walking in and do a double impalment on the two of them. Thus we know who won.

[The Dream Master]

I can see that happening. Kind of like this, actually:

Lori: "Will, look out, behind us!"

Will: :D

[sCabbOy]

i just don't see why people get so bent out of shape of these horror anti-heros being "owned" by anyone. Who really cares? it's entertainment and if Jason, Michael, Leatherface or any other one is beat up... who cares?

Some people seriously lose sleep over that action.

[The Tall Man]

I gotta throw my hat into the anti-Pinhead-ending ring too. The ending we got (Shaye's ending) kicked the hell out of the other two (Written ending and Yu's softcore ending).

T.M.

[Kane Lives]

I like the ending we got the best out of all the proposed endings as well. Leaving it up to the audience as to how they want to interpret that final scene I think was best.

I never really liked the idea of Pinhead breaking up a fight between Freddy and Jason either. I didn't want to see a third Icon brought in.

[sCabbOy]

I agree. The ending was fine.

[Autobotsdie]

The ending was fine to me too because it opened up a chance that they might meet again.

[Dead Cell]

Much as I love the Cenobites, they simply weren't needed here. And besides, I loved the ending we got. It was simple and satisfying.

[The Dream Master]

I'm happy with the ending we got as well. I think it shows that Jason "won," but Freddy wasn't dead, so it truly satisfied fans of both characters.

Also, as Scarecrow already put it, there's absolutely no reason for Pinhead to be showing up in a FvJ movie.

[Rich]

I just wish he didn't wink at the end. That totally killed the ending for me.

[The Dream Master]

If Freddy hadn't already been our narrator and talking directly into the camera throughout the movie, the wink might have been out of place. It didn't really bother me that much. I'm sure there could have been another way to hint that Freddy really wasn't dead, but the wink was alright in my book.

[The Tall Man]

Freddy's wink > all you foos.

:)

T.M.

[BlakeTyner]

Freddy's wink > all you foos.

:)

T.M.

+1

I'm quite satisfied with the wink. And quite satisfied with my winky.

~Blake

[Scarecrow]

The wink is God. :p

To me it's a take it or leave it thing. If they never make another NOES fil then I'm happy to believe FvJ was Freddy's final end, taking the wink as just a sly nod to the audience, nothing too serious. And if they make another one, then it's a sign that he WILL be back. Either way, it was a cool endign showign Jason still walks.

- Scarecrow

[Deathscythe]

I like the wink myself, much more than the Pinhead ending.

[Autobotsdie]

But are they going to meet again down the line.

[Darth Sinister]

I'm not saying that I don't like what is there. Just that if one wanted to go with Lori and Will fucking in bed, then the logical way would've been to have Jason kill them. Not Will turn into Freddy.

[The Dream Master]

See, I think any ending that focuses on Freddy or Jason coming back to kill Will and Lori makes the mistake of believing the latter two are the focus of the film. They aren't, which is why the ending we got works the best.

[Autobotsdie]

Here is good question. Since Will and Lori were the only survivors will Lori's father make them take those pills to make them forget Freddy all over again and will Freddy be back to haunt the dreams of Elm street?

[The Tall Man]

Auto, only the next writer can tell you that! **makes spooky fingers gesture**

:)

T.M.

[Darth Sinister]

I think that Lori and Will won't be going back to Springwood to live. I'm thinking that they were going to go live somewhere else, away from Lori's father and the madness that is Freddy.

[Kane Lives]

Personally, I think Freddy would have access to quite a few kids once he returned to Springwood. Seeing as he was talked about around quite a few teens at the High School, and seemingly even more knew about him by the time of the rave.

It might not be so out of hand yet that the town couldn't get a handle on it again though.

[The Dream Master]

I think you're absolutely right about that, KL. In fact, I think that's what the wink at the end means. Freddy is essentially telling us that he might have lost the battle with Jason, but he accomplished his mission in the long run: to make the kids of Springwood fear him again.

[Autobotsdie]

So now we have an opening for a new NOES.

[MaDMaNMaRz]

I think you're absolutely right about that, KL. In fact, I think that's what the wink at the end means. Freddy is essentially telling us that he might have lost the battle with Jason, but he accomplished his mission in the long run: to make the kids of Springwood fear him again.

I never thought of it like that, but that makes ALOT of sense.

[Autobotsdie]

So what should the next one be called?

[The Dream Master]

Well, considering I don't really want to see another FvJ, I'd prefer a new NOES sequel simply titled Nightmare.

[Autobotsdie]

Or Nightmare on Elm Street: The Nightmares Return.

[Deathscythe]

Or simply Freddy Krueger.

[The New Blood]

Or simply Freddy Krueger.

That would be really stupid.

[Erik]

Or simply Freddy Krueger.

Taking a page out of Stallone's book, I see.

[Autobotsdie]

Nightmare on Elm Street: The nightmares begin again.

[sCabbOy]

I really hate when horror movies are called by the killer's name. Like Chucky, Jason and so on.

Nightmare would be great, that's why I liked "New Nightmare" title. However, A Nightmare On Elm street was great. I love that title.

[Rich]

Actually the title of the movie was Wes Craven's New Nightmare, not just New Nightmare, but I get what you are saying. A Nightmare on Elm Street should be in the title and then a subtitle would be nice. That is if it is even going to happen. I wouldn't hold my breath.

[The Tall Man]

I am SO down with the next film being called Freddy Krueger, as long as it was the final film forever and ever (with Englund, anyway). Really, that's about all they could call one by this point.

T.M.

[Autobotsdie]

What would be interesting is if Freddy had a son and Freddy tried to get in touch with him so he could carry on after his father.

[Ron]

What would be interesting is if Freddy had a son and Freddy tried to get in touch with him so he could carry on after his father.

And then he took the "baby's mama" on Maury to find out if he was actually the "baby's daddy".:side:

[The Tall Man]

Autobots, they did that already in FD... AND Nightmare 5.

T.M.

[Dead Cell]

I've heard Bob Shaye or someone down at New Line say that they absolutely hate doing sequels with large numbers on them. The reason being that they think the audience will look at that and say, "Oh. It's the 8th movie. Who cares?"
Wes Craven originally was going to call New Nightmare, "A Nightmare on Elm Street 7: The Ascension", but it was changed for exactly that reason. Probably the same reason that part 6 was called "Freddy's Dead: The Final Nightmare" instead of "A Nightmare on Elm Street 6: The Final Nightmare".
Even Star Trek stopped using numbers in their titles. Now it's just "Star Trek: First Contact" instead of "Star Trek 8: First Contact". Studios really worry about how that large number will hurt their movie.

[Rich]

Nobody says they have to put a number on it. I mean, anyone who is not familiar with the series can go to just about any website and view every title in order of release and see which one it is. I think they can call it A Nightmare on Elm Street - [enter subtitle] without a number in it.

[Kane Lives]

I agree, they don't have to put a number on it for people to get it.

For me, as long as the next film's title contains either Elm Street or Nightmare, I'll be just fine with it.

[Rich]

Freddy vs. Jason was the first movie in the series to not contain the word Nightmare in it. All of the solo Fred films have the word Nightmare in it. I think they should at least stick with that.

[The Tall Man]

Probably the same reason that part 6 was called "Freddy's Dead: The Final Nightmare" instead of "A Nightmare on Elm Street 6: The Final Nightmare".
"Freddy's Dead" was changed up just to be a little different for what was then the final movie. The movie was shot and announced under the title "A Nightmare on Elm Street 6: Freddy's Dead." Both Fango and Entertainment Tonight run stuff about the movie under this title.

T.M.

[Autobotsdie]

I'm watching it now on Sci-Fi and still can't stand when they take scenes out of it.

[Nancy Thompson]

I'm watching it now on Sci-Fi and still can't stand when they take scenes out of it.

Thats why i do not watch horror movies on basic cable because they all screw the movie up. Like they kept freddy saying bitch in the movie but when someone said pissed they change it. wtf

[Dead Cell]

I watched the final battle on Sci-Fi once a while back just to see how much would get hacked out. Pretty bad. Really bad. Unwatchably bad. The timing of the music was completely screwed up and sounded deflated because of all the editing. It's just not even worth it to bother.

[Autobotsdie]

Thats what I hate. When they take out the best stuff from horror movies.

[SmiTheReeNs*]

I have got to disagree. Freddy owned Jason in the dream world, and rightfully so, but Jason should have owned Freddy in reality. The movie favored Freddy in every way. The movie just was not fair to Jason at all. I am a fan of both character, but more of a Jason fan, and I was let down big time by this. It almost seemed like a statement from New Line saying, "Yey for Freddy fans and fuck Jason fans."

Well said Rich. I also feel that Jason got shyted on. I wasnt really surprised, it was made by NL There is noway Freddy could defeat Jason in the real world. There are gonna be skeptics and what not but Jason would destroy Freddy without a doubt. I know what both are capable of doing and Freddy loses all day!:jason:

[The Dream Master]

In FD, it was shown that Freddy retains some (if not all of) his power in the real world, so it's not at all unreasonable to think that Freddy could hang with Jason.

Also, if I'm not mistaken...Jason wins when he shoves Freddy's own glove right through him. I've never understood why people thought he got short-changed.

[Autobotsdie]

Well Freddys own glove was used against him so it would be considered a win.

[The Dream Master]

Auto, exactly. Not only did Jason "kill" (I use that term very loosely, obviously), he essentially punked him out while doing so by using Freddy's own weapon against him.

[El Rooto]

Didn't Mark Swift say Jason won?

I think it's interesting that the epilogue has become a sort of Rorschach test for fans. Jason fans think Jason won (I mean, he's carrying the guy's fricking head!!) and Freddy fans think Freddy won (C'mon - Freddy winked. This is a dream! It's starting all over again, and Freddy is again manipulating Jason).

What is the truth? Well... I don't know, I didn't write it. But it does deliver the effect that Damian and I were originally going for. We certainly didn't want a draw, but we wanted it to end up that both sides could claim some sort of victory.

But if you want my personal opinion? You gotta give it to the big guy. Jason won. However... it seems the war might not be over.

And as for bias against Freddy...

In our meetings with Bob Shaye, he seemed a bit more interested in the Freddy side of things. Of course, that's completely understandable given his history. But that only made Damian and I that much more adamant in our defense of Jason. Unfortunately, a lot of the stuff that got cut from our screenplay (and from the film) was more from the Crystal Lake side of things. However, I don't think that stemmed from a bias for one character over another.

[The Tall Man]

The timing of the music was completely screwed up and sounded deflated because of all the editing.
How do you mean? Did you mean that the music jumped around (that didn't happen, but I'm not sure what you mean)? The fight was so edited that they had to take out the music track, edit the movie, then lay the music track back into what's left.

Thats what I hate. When they take out the best stuff from horror movies.
Where have you been and why are you so shocked? Gore has always been cut out of television airings of movies. Moms go apeshit when they see that stuff. I don't know why horror fans haven't been more accepting of this fact by now. It's just not gonna change, guys.

In FD, it was shown that Freddy retains some (if not all of) his power in the real world, so it's not at all unreasonable to think that Freddy could hang with Jason.
Absolutely.

Didn't Mark Swift say Jason won?
Forget Swift... as soon as the picture came out, New Line came out with their official stance: Jason won.

T.M.

[Kane Lives]

In my view, Freddy didn't get the best treatment in the film himself.

The story may have been more Nightmare-based because of the town coverup plotline, but Freddy takes a lot of embarrassing verbal shots in the film (some that compliment Jason at his expense) and kills only one central character in the film. I know that was part of the plot initially, but by the time of the rave, Freddy could kill again.



I've never found the final battle to be very unrealistic personally. Like The Dream Master said, Freddy's Dead shows him to have some Supernatural powers still intact. No normal man can shift his appearance and walk on the ceiling.

It also shows he can take crippling blows and not simply die. He gets a crowbar rammed into his chest, and he simply pulls it out. So, he's not going to fall like a normal camp counselor IMO.

As long as they had him use his wits against Jason for the most part, and not body slam him or throw him around, I was fine with it. I think they could have shown a little more battle damage on Freddy and gave Jason a few more scenes of dominance, but for the most part I enjoyed the finale.



Also, if I'm not mistaken...Jason wins when he shoves Freddy's own glove right through him.


Yeah, I think since Jason got that final blow, it would be hard to argue that Freddy won. But, I guess Freddy fans could argue for a draw; since Freddy won in the dream world and the ending could possibly be Freddy making the final play of the film so to speak and once again entering Jason's dream.



We certainly didn't want a draw, but we wanted it to end up that both sides could claim some sort of victory.


Even though they didn't write it, this quote describes why I like the ending we got and why it's grown on me over the years. I really wanted the two distinct endings, yet I feel the current ending was the next best thing. You can look at it however you want.

[Darth Sinister]

I'd say that definately Jason one the fight. Freddy was done for either way. All Lori did was get her licks in so that her story could have it's conclusion. And as shown in "Freddy's Dead", Freddy learned how to manage pain and fight through it. By the time of the dock sequence, you can see Freddy's barely managing to keep going while Jason, who has taken it all, gets back up for more. Freddy had to be faster because England is smaller and for the most part, a bit more agile. If it had been Kane, he too would've moved slowly and missed some blows.

[Brett H.]

I think Shaye was more interested in the Freddy aspects of the story because, let's face it, NOES films are much more interesting than F13 films. I know when F vs. J was released, a lot of people complained that is was so NOES dominant, but I chalked this up to pure fanboyism. The movie had to have a NOES feel to it because Freddy is a much more dynamic character and not to mention, the NOES films have a lot more merit than F13.

However, let's just say Freddy was stalking kids on Elm Street and one of them happened to be going to Crystal Lake to be a counselor and he infected the whole staff, that would have been rather interesting. I'd like to see Crystal Lake with Freddy's Nightmares/NOES 4 & 5 style lighting in a sequence.

[SmiTheReeNs*]

Freddy is more a dynamic character cuz he can talk and make you giggle here and there? Im lookin at the scare factor and Jason scares me more then Freddy does. And NOES has more merit then F13th? Didnt the Friday the 13th franchise made 10 films more then NOES 7?:confused:

[Brett H.]

Freddy is more a dynamic character cuz he can talk and make you giggle here and there? Im lookin at the scare factor and Jason scares me more then Freddy does. And NOES has more merit then F13th? Didnt the Friday the 13th franchise made 10 films more then NOES 7?:confused:

The NOES films are way deeper than the F13 films. Freddy is a more dynamic character because he has more going on. You can't have a Jason movie with Freddy that feels like a Jason movie because at the end of the day, something other than stalking in the woods has to happen and Freddy can't exactly, nor does he want to, mosey on into the real world. The dream aspect, the son of 100 maniacs aspect, Amanda Krueger, his daughter, his child killing back story, the various fantastic ways he kills, his quips, the fantasy elements, I could go on on and on about interesting things about the series. Jason... well his mom tried to get revenge on counselors and later on he did the same. Anything else? Freddy threads get so deep into interesting things in the series. F13 threads talk about Jason kicking or not kicking dogs. Are they both great series'? Yes. But, NOES is a classic of cinema and Friday the 13th is... a fun movie.

[SmiTheReeNs*]

For one Friday the 13th is not a fun movie, i see Freddy killing somebody and callin them bitch rather fun. well his mom tried to get revenge on counselors and later on he did the same. Anything else? You hear the Freddy myth, you go to sleep and he kills you anything else? Friday the 13th or is wayyy better then any NOES installment. NOES never really got me out of my seat, no doubt the plot and the entertainment were there but thats where it ends. Besides this IS the Friday the 13th community and i will stand by my buddy Jason all day!:saw:

[The Tall Man]

Freddy threads get so deep into interesting things in the series. F13 threads talk about Jason kicking or not kicking dogs.
Touche' Boo. :lmao:

You hear the Freddy myth, you go to sleep and he kills you anything else?
"You have sex/smoke dope/or any other sin and Jason gets you. Anything else? ;) Thios back and forth insulting can go on forever.

Friday the 13th or is wayyy better then any NOES installment.
Besides this IS the Friday the 13th community and i will stand by my buddy Jason all day!:saw:
Y'know, I've always felt this was a community of horror movie fans, not just Friday the 13th. Mayhaps I should look around more if this isn't the case. It's fine being a Friday fan, but one should always keep perspective.

You may enjoy a "Friday the 13th" film more than an "A Nightmare on Elm Street", but the true fact of the matter is that there aren't any of the Fridays that are technically better-made movies than the Nightmares. And I believe that's what Boo's talking about. None of the Nightmares were technically poorly done but movies like Friday 5 are pretty shoddy-looking. The only Friday that can stand with the Nightmares is "Freddy vs. Jason" and it shares that entry with the Nightmare films, so in the end, it's a wash.

I loved "Freddy's Nightmares" more than "Friday the 13th: The Series" because it actually had Freddy... but there's no way in hell it was a better made show than Friday The Series.

T.M.

[BlakeTyner]

I'm with you, Tall. Although I really enjoy the Friday films, I really don't think any of them holds a candle to the Nightmare series, even as silly as it became toward the end. That in no way cheapens Friday the 13th, it's just the way things are. I think both series serve somewhat different purposes - Jason is basically a killing machine, while Freddy has quite a bit more depth. The Nightmare films tend to be more cerebral.

~Blake

[The Dream Master]

I agree with Boo and Tally. I love Friday the 13th, but I'll always be a bigger fan of the Nightmare films.

Most of the NOES films deal with various themes, have great characters, and are just well-made. Say what you want about, say, Dream Child: it's a very well directed film and has a visual flair that none of the Fridays can claim. For the most part, pretty much every F13 looks the same, save for a few.

[Deathscythe]

I prefer the NoES series myself, but it all comes down to opinion.

[girlychaos]

I get what you guys are saying (Tall, Boo, Blakey and DM)...I also respect it, and obviously everyone is entitled to have opinions. We can't always agree.

But I'm with Smith this time. I've never been a fan of NOES at all...they're not even on my top 3 horror franchises. Yeah...I get what you guys said about how they were "better made" and the depth issue....but they never ever got me scared at all. And I'm saying this to show you that well...it's clear that we won't agree here, but we have to respect everyone's opinions no matter what.

Also it is a Friday the 13th community, but that doesn't mean there are only Jason fans here. We should be able to say what we think within reason, without having to disrespect other people's opinions. That's what I think anyway.

[Just Jeans]

I love A Nightmare on Elm Street, but I'm a Friday the 13th man through and through. I think the series had the potential to be more than it was in terms of interesting ideas, but the majority of the fan-base are dead-set in stagnation. That's why I liked Jason Goes to Hell and why I wanted to love Jason X. So long as the basic principles stay the same (which I feel they did in both Jason Goes to Hell and Jason X) I see no reason not to experiment.

Unfortunately, no one at Paramount felt that way, and New Line just couldn't be fussed after the mediocre reception that met JGTH and Jason X. Sad, really.

As for the name of the community... well hell, I've spent far more time on all the other sub-sections individually than I've ever spent in the Friday the 13th section. I love the series, but it's all been talked about to death. When there's anew film looming, I'm in here constantly, otherwise I spend more time in the TV section and the Campfire.

[SmiTheReeNs*]

:doggy: everybody got real touchy there! :shame:

[Brett H.]

I am no bigger fan of NOES than F13, my only concern in the matter was sort of a reflection of how people were thinking when F vs. J came out. A lot on the old forum complained it was too much of a Freddy movie and I thought that was such a weird way of thinking since it makes more sense to use the depth of Freddy (hey, at least make the movie as interesting as possible), to put Freddy into Jason's world, you'd have to dumb everything down so much that you may as well not make the movie.

As far as people saying Freddy didn't scare them but Jason did, well your point is taken. But the depth of the series is all I'm referring to. Personally I had Freddy nightmares when I was a kid (now I just have nightmares about watching Freddy's Nightmares, Tally can attest to this). I don't see how one could be scared of Jason and not Freddy... Jason is pretty tame other than some jump scares, especially if you disregard the early films. But what scares you, scares you.

I agree with Jeans, I liked JGTH because it was deeper, not to mention the direction is amazing and it's just a fun movie. It is just frustrating that people don't see it this way simply because Jason isn't in it. I also like how people hate part 5 (with good reason, but the main complaint is no Jason), yet until the end, you had no idea it wasn't Jason in the first place.

Freddy can't be Jason and Jason can't be Freddy. They both are great series' and have shaped horror unlike no others. It's great they are different.

And, I agree DM, The Dream Child looks great. I WANT to like it every damn time I watch it.

[Just Jeans]

As far as people saying Freddy didn't scare them but Jason did, well your point is taken.

To be honest, neither of them scare me within the context of their films. I stopped watching both franchises to be scared when I hit fifteen or sixteen years old.

In my adult years, I find the idea of Jason more imposing because the idea of a psychopath who simply will not stop coming after you until you're dead is the kind of fear that a person can relate to in the real world.

The idea of Freddy is clever and I can see why some people are scared of him, but he's pure fantasy. Remove the undead elements from Jason Voorhees he is the personification of what scares me as an individual (I have trouble walking around out in the woods at night because, for all I know, there's some maniac out there with a big knife who might kill me if I happen upon him. I'm not so much worried about a dream demon killing me in my sleep.)

I also like how people hate part 5 (with good reason, but the main complaint is no Jason), yet until the end, you had no idea it wasn't Jason in the first place.

I love the fifth film. For all it's flaws, it's still my favorite film in the series (again, I respect that it tried to do something different, and over-all I just have a great time watching it).

[The Dream Master]

Boo, we actually had a similar discussion over in the Future Friday the 13th thread, and your thoughts echo my own (and others) over there. FvJ had to be centered on Freddy simply because it's hard to propel a plot with a silent killer like Jason. Watch any of the F13 films: Jason does not act as something that moves the plot along. That comes from all of the other characters because what are you going to do with Jason? Have him walk around and stalk?

On the other hand, more than a few Elm Street films are just like FvJ: we're following Freddy and his attempt to come back and kill kids. This is true of Freddy's Revenge, Dream Child, and Freddy's Dead, so it makes perfect sense that FvJ would follow this pattern.

It's not a matter of saying Freddy or the NOES series is better than Jason or Friday the 13th: it's just a matter of accepting that Freddy pretty much had to be at the center of the film because it really couldn't have been done any other way.

[Brett H.]

To be honest, neither of them scare me within the context of their films. I stopped watching both franchises to be scared when I hit fifteen or sixteen years old.

The idea of Freddy is clever and I can see why some people are scared of him, but he's pure fantasy.

There was a time when I was too afraid to watch horror movies. Growing up with them, I had seen tons. From about age 13-16 I went through a drought. By the time I was 17, I found the NOES set at a local video store and bought it. I really had questions about watching them as I thought they'd freak me out too much. Too many "real' ghosts, demonic possession, etc... shows/documentaries were playing with my mind during that time. Either way I was wrong and the films never scared me in the slightest.

As for you thinking Jason is much scarier. To me, if I saw a burned up dude with a claw on his hand, that'd be as scary. But the scene that really makes Freddy for me is when he's leaning in through the wall over Nancy in the first film. That is fuckin' pretty scary when you think about it. I am more afraid of what I can't see, what's behind me. What happens when my eyes are closed (although not necessarily asleep).


On the other hand, more than a few Elm Street films are just like FvJ: we're following Freddy and his attempt to come back and kill kids. This is true of Freddy's Revenge, Dream Child, and Freddy's Dead, so it makes perfect sense that FvJ would follow this pattern.


I agree with this. Along with the depth Freddy has, I also consider his kills much more innovative and interesting. Jason's hands-on approach is great, but it doesn't please you like a Freddy kill can.

[Shoesalesman]

In my adult years, I find the idea of Jason more imposing because the idea of a psychopath who simply will not stop coming after you until you're dead is the kind of fear that a person can relate to in the real world.

Good call. Puts Jason's powers into a real world view for me too.

[Darth Sinister]

Here's how I look at it. Both are good and bad. Freddy represents the fear of death, especially in the dream world. He has depth to his origin in that he is the result of evil that is born and bred. We see that evil was born and his upbringing made it possible for him to become the ultimate evil. A tale of revenge from beyond the grave, as Marge Simpson once put it. Freddy killed, so the parents killed him and to get back at them, he started killing the children in their dreams. Basically it's revenge gone horribly wrong.

The Voorhees clan has to deal with revenge, but in a different way. From what little we know in the films, Pamela appeared to be a normal woman who lost her son to tragedy and lost her mind. Her revenge is justifiable and while it's not condoned, it's understandable. With Jason it goes to the next level as he wants revenge for his mother's death and wants to make anyone who crosses paths with him pay a toll. He's not evil at first, but becomes such as time goes on. Jason is realistic prior to the sixth film. Someone that could exist in the real world up to that point.

Both series were made by different producers and studios. Paramount became more interested either in the almighty dollar or protecting their asses, because of the controversy. New Line Cinema is the house that Freddy built. They owe their success to Wes Craven's creative mind and vision. Because he was their mascot, NLC put effort into the films. And knew when to back off with the sequels. Look no further than the time between FD, WCNN and FvsJ.

It would've been nice to have more of Jason's side of the story in FvsJ, but a lot of his story can be summed up as seen with Deputy Stubbs revealing who Jason is to everyone. Freddy has a bunch of rules and backstory which fills up an entire film, especially with the new characters playing catch-up. There's not much more to add for the Jason angle, that wouldn't go into JGTH territory. The Crystal Lake development story is interesting, but what could be done with it in a story such as this. On it's own, it would make a nice start to a solo Jason film.

[Autobotsdie]

Nice summary of the whole thing.

[nottidelterrore]

Freddy vs. Jason turned out to be better than I thought it would be. I didn't think the fight was all that great but still decent overall. The CGI effects were horrible & lame. And I hated the soundtrack. Yet I was still pretty entertained by this movie.

[Chex]

Interestingly, in the script it goes that Kia marches up to Jason and gives the old Nancy "I'm not afraid of you. I take back all the energy I gave you" spiel. Jason just looks at her and Freddy barks "Wrong one, bitch" after which Jason machetes her.


After reading this, I firmly believe it should have been left in.

[nottidelterrore]

After reading this, I firmly believe it should have been left in.

Same here. Would've been pretty funny. :D

[Dave Dunwoody]

I agree with Brett that NOES has the deeper mythos and more interesting lead in Freddy. Because of that, it's unusual to me that NOES hasn't explored new directions as much as F13 has. Jason has been copy-catted, turned into a zombie, taken into space. He's done a drive-by on Manhattan and possessed other people as a wacky worm. True, Jason is the more bland, formulaic killer, but the franchise has attempted a slew of new directions, even if the stalk-'n'-slash routine remains the same.

Freddy's exploits have had a few twists like in The Dream Child, and his kills are innovative, but it doesn't venture into new territory IMO, aside from expanding his character. The series still has enormous potential to evolve, though. He's had a rich backstory established, now it's time for the films to look forward. (Unfortunately, we'll probably get a remake before that can happen.) Freddy doesn't scare me, but his films stir my imagination and make me wonder about all that could happen in the dream world.

Jason doesn't scare me for the same reason Freddy doesn't - because he's become a horror hero. These guys were both pop culture fixtures before I saw the movies, so I never had a chance to be terrified. I think the first time I saw Freddy in action was the Fat Boys video on MTV. And when I was a little kid watching the original F13, I whined because I expected to see the hockey mask at the end and instead got some lady in a sweater.

After reading this, I firmly believe it should have been left in.

Would've been a classic moment for sure, unlike the "f*ggot with butter knives" speech.

[Kane Lives]

I hate her trash talking to Freddy in the final film.

I think the original version should have been used also. At least with that version, the joke would have been on her and still led to her death.

[The Dream Master]

At least Kia didn't get away with her trash talk, which is more than I can say for Busta Rhymes in H:R. :shifty:

[Kane Lives]

She died, but not by the hands of the person she was trash talking. That didn't look good on Freddy IMO.

Still, even if Freddy would have sliced her up every way possible, I hate it when the victim stands up and gets in the killer's face that way. A film always loses me when it shows that its victims aren't even taking the villain seriously. I hated that scene in Resurrection too.

[The Dream Master]

I can understand that, KL. I never thought about it that way, probably because I'm so used to people standing up to Freddy at this point.

[The Tall Man]

She died, but not by the hands of the person she was trash talking. That didn't look good on Freddy IMO.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that and here's why: when you watch the scene, it is OBVIOUS that Freddy sees Jason. Freddy very easily could have just jumped over there, or hell probably teleported and pulled a Gloved Horshack (TM) on Kia, but he doesn't. He allows Kia the rope to hang herself with. And when she's finally done mouthing off, only THEN does he let the cat out of the bag that the J-Man is right there... machete cocked and loaded. Maybe Freddy didn't exactly steal Kia's soul... but he didn't just let her get away with her mouth either.

T.M.

[Kane Lives]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that and here's why: when you watch the scene, it is OBVIOUS that Freddy sees Jason. Freddy very easily could have just jumped over there, or hell probably teleported and pulled a Gloved Horshack (TM) on Kia, but he doesn't. He allows Kia the rope to hang herself with. And when she's finally done mouthing off, only THEN does he let the cat out of the bag that the J-Man is right there... machete cocked and loaded. Maybe Freddy didn't exactly steal Kia's soul... but he didn't just let her get away with her mouth either.

T.M.


I'm aware that he sees Jason behind Kia and was backing her up into him. I just don't like how the scene was done. Jason is not the one she was insulting, so I feel like he really shouldn't have even been a part of that moment. Freddy may have had a small hand in her death yes, but it ends up coming off much weaker IMO than had he killed her himself and shut her up that way.

I felt it made Freddy look a little foolish to have Jason just step in and take Kia out the way he did, especially after she was starting to play Jason up at Freddy's expense by making fun of his glove. That's just the way I've always looked at it. Others will obviously see it differently.


It also ties into my dislike of Freddy's very low body count in the film, and here's a perfect opportunity for a kill where a victim gets very personal with Freddy; and like you pointed out he could have torn her heart out, yet he still doesn't deliver. The Freddy can't kill rule was gone by then, so I've never gotten the reasoning behind that one.

[Deathscythe]

I agree, Freddy should have killed Kia. I was actually expecting Kia to say he looks like he had chicken pox or something like that.

[Chucky's back]

I absolutely hated the jacket, undershirt, pants, boots, etc.

I thought it looked ridiculous. I personally wouldn't be caught in Hell wearing that outfit.

Yeah I can't stand it myself. It killed whatever continuity that was left in the franchise.

There wasn't really any person from the prior films that had any involvement in this film, No Kane, no Harry Manfredini, no Betsy Palmer, nothing. I remember there also begin a news flash that Corey Feldman was going to play Tommy Jarvis again, but that didn't happen either. It was like as if New Line was trying to exclude anyone who had any history with the films.

[Rick]

I think New Line finally had a script they liked and were more worried about getting this movie made finally then negotiating with past players.
Besides, it was Freddy vs Jason, not the Return of Jarvis. They had the two main characters from each franchise which is all they probably felt they needed.
Had this actually become a series like Ronnie Yu claims it was supposed to be then having Tommy or Ginny appear in later sequels along with a couple Elm St. Alumni would have been great.

[Darth Sinister]

They tried to work in past characters before, but felt that it would be best just to stick to the most important ones. Freddy, Jason and Pamela.

[The Tall Man]

Chucky, not New Line... Stokley.

T.M.

[Cody]

They tried to work in past characters before, but felt that it would be best just to stick to the most important ones. Freddy, Jason and Pamela.

I agree with that choice.

The finished film may have its problems, but at the base of it all I think Shannon and Swift did come up with the perfect idea, set-up and structure for the crossover.

[Chex]

I liked Jason's look in this one much more than Jason Lives takes on his wardrobe. Didn't he have a utility belt in that one? :P