Saw IV

[jayTL]

From Rotten Tomatoes:

Most actors are happy when they get asked back to a role. Not Donnie Wahlberg. Though left for dead at the end of Saw II, he was granted more screen time in Saw III. That seemed to be the end, but it looks like there's more Wahlberg in Saw IV.

"Yeah, I got a scene in it," said Wahlberg. "They kept me alive. I told them I wanted to die in part three and they took out my death. I just lie there and nothing happens."

[Spoiler alert]

Even Jigsaw died in Saw III but he's back. The filmmakers are keeping a tight lip on the timeframe that allows such actors to return, but Wahlberg was so annoyed that he spilled that officer Matthews still exists in present tense.

"No, they kept me alive. I don't want to talk about it."

Perplexed? You've got a few months to marinate on it, until Saw IV makes its way into theaters on October 26.

:rolleyes:

[Ron]

wow, i can't beleive donnie wahlberg's coming back.

oops...sorry about forgetting the spoiler tags..im a little rusty.

[Jigsaw]

Hopefully Shawnee Smith will return as well and for more than just flashbacks :shifty:

I still don't know how to feel about Saw IV. I still feel bitterly disappointed with Saw III, but maybe this movie will make up for it.

[Autobotsdie]

I thought that doctor from 1 would come back since we have no idea what happened to him and just assumed he was dead.

[CosmoBubba]

Unfortunately, I think the fate of Dr. Gordon is the one question about the franchise that they'll never answer. The fact that it's spun into a joke during the Saw 3 DVD commentary is enough to convince me of that.

[Ron]

Cary Elwes has a pending lawsuit with the producers of Saw so you can pretty much bet your bottom dollar that you'll never see him again.

[Jigsaw]

The only way Cary would possibly return is if he was paid a very high salary, probably one that the producers wouldn't be able to afford :(

[Ron]

it's a real shame too..fans would love to see Elwes return as the mastermind behind jigsaw's games.

[Killa Pimp]

Opening day..... Front Row.... Center.

The quality of each film is just great... The sequels have lacked that "something" at certain points in the movies,
but overall they all have been entertaining.

They also seem to keep all of the sequels in the family. (Writers, director's , etc)

I am hoping that the new F13 makers (if the new one is good) follow this criteria and keep the best talent on this and future installments

[Ron]

I think the 3 Saw films would have made a solid trilogy, but now they're just whoring themselves out for money..

[Autobotsdie]

But Saw 3 left some unaswered questions like did Jigsaw really die and what happened to Shawnee Smiths character.

[Toejam]

They both looked dead to me. Do you want a full autopsy report?

[Autobotsdie]

Nope. But why would they be talking about Saw 4 if Jigsaw wasn't part of it.

[Ron]

see my signature for consolation. I have a feeling that Jigsaw's gonna be around for a lot longer than he ritefully should. Damn orange juice is curing brain cancer I guess nowadays.

[Toejam]

Nope. But why would they be talking about Saw 4 if Jigsaw wasn't part of it.

Why not? Halloween III didn't have Michael Myers.
The real answer is $$$$$$$$.
They will pump'em out until they don't make money.
Rumor is they are planning Saw V and VI.

[Ron]

trust me, tobin bell will be in saw 4 and 5 in some form or another because he is contractually obligated to be aka the paid him a lot of $$$$$:eek:

[Autobotsdie]

Its all about the Benjamins isn't it?

[mcilroga]

I might be the only person who hates the Saw franchise, but I do. The first one was easily the best of the trilogy, but when all is said and done, that isn't saying much. It's so gimmicky and gristle, it's unbelievable. It's exploitative on gore. It's messily set up, with nothing really memorable until its shocking ending, which remains the greatest scene in the entire series, and certainly too good to be in that film. If only the predecessing scenes had that much thought put into them, maybe we'd have had a decent flick on our hands? As it stands, that didn't happen, and as it stands, Saw is an overrated, terribly acted (Cary Elwes begging for his family's life had me rolling), enervating film.

And then came the sequels. They remain some of the most plot-holed films I've ever seen. What happened in the previous sequel didn't really happen now. What's that called, kids? Laziness. What was set up before has now become something entirely different for the useless sake of setting up a "fast one" ending to make the audience go "Wow!" at the moment, and five minutes later say, "Wait a minute..." Because the ending of Saw II was surprising at the time, but ridiculous when you actually sit down and think about it. Because it totally debunks a huge portion of Saw. Once again, laziness. And the ending of Saw III was even worse. But when can I expect from a banal and shitty film... and series.

And Saw IV looks to be following in its footsteps.

[Ron]

I might be the only person who hates the Saw franchise, but I do. The first one was easily the best of the trilogy, but when all is said and done, that isn't saying much. It's so gimmicky and gristle, it's unbelievable. It's exploitative on gore. It's messily set up, with nothing really memorable until its shocking ending, which remains the greatest scene in the entire series, and certainly too good to be in that film. If only the predecessing scenes had that much thought put into them, maybe we'd have had a decent flick on our hands? As it stands, that didn't happen, and as it stands, Saw is an overrated, terribly acted (Cary Elwes begging for his family's life had me rolling), enervating film.

And then came the sequels. They remain some of the most plot-holed films I've ever seen. What happened in the previous sequel didn't really happen now. What's that called, kids? Laziness. What was set up before has now become something entirely different for the useless sake of setting up a "fast one" ending to make the audience go "Wow!" at the moment, and five minutes later say, "Wait a minute..." Because the ending of Saw II was surprising at the time, but ridiculous when you actually sit down and think about it. Because it totally debunks a huge portion of Saw. Once again, laziness. And the ending of Saw III was even worse. But when can I expect from a banal and shitty film... and series.

And Saw IV looks to be following in its footsteps.

examples please....

[mcilroga]

examples please....

Of what, exactly?

[The Dream Master]

How exactly do the sequels contradict the other films, perhaps?

I'm not trying to be confrontational about this, but it's the first time I've seen this complaint levied at the Saw franchise.

[mcilroga]

Well, things like Amanda being a victim in Saw 1 and then turning out to be a killer the whole time in Saw II. It seemed so spur-of-the-moment and only there for the sake of being a twist. It shocked me at first, but then I thought about how far-fetched and unnecessary it was.

[The Dream Master]

I can sort of see that, and I probably would have reacted the same way if I hadn't already guessed it. I don't really think it contradicts everything, but it just sort of strains credibility. After all making Amanda a killer doesn't really go against anything we learn about her in the first film. I always thought it was a bit weird how Amanda seemed to appreciate what Jigsaw did to her in the first one, so it's kind of a logical progression in a way .

[Shoesalesman]

Saw and Saw II were great, Saw III for me was okay. If the fourth one is worse than the third one I won't be seeing a fifth one.

I, too, fear this series has been milked too much and they need to focus on a greater-than-great storyline instead of filling the pockets with the green.

[Ron]

saw IV has the potential to be either really good or really bad. this installment will inevitably make or break the series.

[Jigsaw]

I loved the first two Saws but absolutely loathed Saw III. That movie to me ruined the series badly enough to almost warrant a remake/reboot. I'm still unsure about Saw IV, but a part of me hopes it'll be at least decent and make up for Saw III.

[Autobotsdie]

They should just do it like they did Scream and leave it at 3 where everything is settled.

[Shoesalesman]

saw IV has the potential to be either really good or really bad. this installment will inevitably make or break the series.

I could not have said it better, Peter Baker.

[Ron]

They should just do it like they did Scream and leave it at 3 where everything is settled.

the only problem with that is you're left with an open ended trilogy:meh:

[FreddyKR]

I was pretty dissapointed wit Saw III. In IV they need to have like the craziest twist ever.

[Ron]

I was pretty dissapointed wit Saw III. In IV they need to have like the craziest twist ever.

I'm not quite sure they have another twist in them.

[CosmoBubba]

I'm waiting for one of the Saw movies to end up becoming like M. Night Shyamalan's Lady In The Water, where the twist is that there actually isn't one at all.

Either that, or for the twists to get so convoluted that they come across as something lame the writers came up with at the last minute as a lame attempt to fill in plot holes. (I'm sure someone could make the arguement that they're starting to be like that already, but that someone isn't me.)

[FreddyKR]

I'm not quite sure they have another twist in them.
Well its just that like in Saw III, the twist really wasnt all that great. Nothing beats the first one though.

[Ron]

yeah i don't think the first films can be topped because fans expect the twist now.

[jayTL]

http://www.bloody-disgusting.com/news/9442

Funniest. Poster. Ever.

[nickmeece]

I hate the idea of a decapitated Jigsaw...

[FreddyKR]

yeah....that looks pretty bad.

[hack slash]

that makes me want to see the movie even less:side:

[Jack Bauer]

http://www.ackbar.org/images/ackbar.jpg

It's a Trap!

..........

Did you see that coming when you saw the tag line for SAW IV. I did.

[Jigsaw]

That poster looks pretty cool IMO.

[Jack Bauer]

The poster does look cool but it does remind me of Re-Animator. Maybe Combs is doing a cameo as Dr. West :evil:.

[Ron]

This poster just goes to show how thin they are spreading the John/Jigsaw character.

[Toejam]

I like the poster.
It is way better than the teeth posters for Saw III.

[Ron]

I like the poster.
It is way better than the teeth posters for Saw III.

That's not really saying much though unfortunatley:meh:

[Jigsaw]

Edit: never mind, the clip was taken down.

[hack slash]

SAW IV Comic Con CLIP

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tSMoEOTpLCc

[FreddyKR]

That looks crazy!

[Skye]

Woah to the trailer. Looks awesome, but I thought that Saw 4 is supposed to be a continuation of Saw 3.

Larry and I get back from our honeymoon that day...we're definitely seeing it!

But I hate the poster...I don't like the decapitated Jigsaw.

[Scarecrow]

I like the poster.

I was working at the cinema when Saw 3 came out, so many people came out and I heard a few saying "well, thats definitly it / he's definitly dead" kind of thing.

This poster let's audiences know the filmmakers akwoledge that and people, I think, will be more intrigued as to how the film will work rather than thinking "but he DIED!"


- Scarecrow

[jayTL]

but.....


"It's a TRAP"!!!!!!

[CosmoBubba]

but.....


"It's a TRAP"!!!!!!

That only means one thing: the twist is going to be Jigsaw unmasking to reveal that he's not Tobin Bell, but Admiral Akbar.

[Autobotsdie]

If they do do it like that then what is there to say about a trilogy. I'm afraid they will turn Saw into another one of those movie with some many sequels that people will loos interest after a while. Thats why sceam did so well because they left it at 3.

[Merf]

http://www.ackbar.org/images/ackbar.jpg


So wait... John was a simple pawn in the grand scheme of things? What you're saying, Jack, is that it was Admiral Ackbar all along, masterminding these horrid games of life and death?

I fuckin' knew it. Had a hunch all along. Goddamned space-frogs.

[Skye]

If they do do it like that then what is there to say about a trilogy. I'm afraid they will turn Saw into another one of those movie with some many sequels that people will loos interest after a while. Thats why sceam did so well because they left it at 3.

Personally, I thought they should've left Scream alone after 2. Scream 3 sucked.

What about NOES? Hellraiser? Friday the 13th? Halloween? They all have multiple sequels and are still doing extremely well, series and interest-wise. A series CAN do well even if the filmmakers continue with the series after a trilogy.


But unlike Friday the 13th, Hellraiser, and NOES, the Saw series doesn't have a villan that is immortal, so with those series, you can have 12 or 13 sequels and it would still be interesting. Jigsaw is human, and is DEAD. We clearly saw him die at the end of Saw 3, so why continue with the series? Are the filmmakers so damn greedy that they have to ruin a good series just to squeeze every drop of money from the Saw franchise? I mean, yes, I would like to know what happened to the father and daughter at the end of Saw 3. Everyone does. But instead of making a whole 'nother movie out of it, just add it as an alternate ending or a short film or something.

[El Rooto]

What were they thinking when they decided on that tagline?

Oh, right...they were thinking of RotJ.

But, really...

[TheCurse]

I was watching an interview of Darren Bousman and Tobin Bell from the Comic-Con on ign.com and it's amazing how Tobin's normal speaking voice is so much different than in the films. Tobin has really got that whole weakened-state, on-my-deathbed thing down when he's speaking his lines in the films.

It was also interesting listening to the two talk about how IV fits into the series, as well as future films.

http://media.movies.ign.com/media/863/863596/vids_1.html

[Skye]

Holy shit. Tobin Bell sounds nothing like Jigsaw in real life! He definately has my props as an actor now.

[jayTL]

When he was in 24, Tobin was using like half normal/half jigsaw voice

[hack slash]

Tobin Bell is on that new show Killpoint With Donnie Wahlberg and John Leguizamo

[hack slash]

lovely little picture

http://www.officialsaw.com/subpage.php?PG=news

[Ron]

Thats a cool pic, but I don't know how I feel about the poster yet. Nevertheless, I'm looking forward to this film. It comes out on my birthday.

Has anyone else seen the opening scene to this yet?? It's online now at rottentomatoes.com. I also just found out that they're making a Saw videogame over at the official site. Pretty cool news.

[Autobotsdie]

Now they're talking about making a Saw 5.

[DRE]

And VI.

The closer we get to the release, the more it looks like Amanda isn't returning beyond a cameo.

[Jigsaw]

The closer we get to the release, the more it looks like Amanda isn't returning beyond a cameo.


Hopefully that isn't the case :( Maybe her possible reprisal or survival is being kept a closely-guarded secret to surprise the fans.

[DRE]

If that were the case, it would be cool. They seem to be going all out for this one, especially with the traps. Imagine if this were the first in the "Amanda as Jigsaw" trilogy, it'd be like Godfather II by showing the John Kramer stuff they will be addressing in this film while concurrently following the new Jigsaw story.

[Autobotsdie]

So who'll take Amandas place

[Jigsaw]

I'd love to see that Dre, Amanda having her own trilogy with Saws IV-VI. Her character still needs to have a lot of development and insight into her backstory and motivation before Saw is done with her. She's become far too important to be done with now, and Saw III didn't even really do anything with the concept of her as John's successor. I can't see see how Saw can continue for several more movies without at least Amanda, and I think most fans and viewers wouldn't be interested in seeing new characters be the leads of the series.

[Ron]

I hear that Amanda and Jigsaw are both dead, but Jigasaw's appearance in Saw IV will not be through flashbacks.I'm not really sure how that'll work.:confused:

[CosmoBubba]

I hear that Amanda and Jigsaw are both dead, but Jigasaw's appearance in Saw IV will not be through flashbacks.I'm not really sure how that'll work.:confused:

Maybe there'll be a new Jigsaw using a voice manipulator to sound like Tobin Bell, similar to what they did in the Scream movies.

[Ron]

I'm thinking either something like that or there will be some type of pre-recorded video footage .

[Scarecrow]

I think Amanda may well hit the footnotes of history along with Julia Cotten, Roy Burns and Silver Shamrock as an "also ran". Let's face it, you create a popular franchise, you can't change the villain, however sensible that may be. Fans want the guy they started with. A shame but seems true to me.


- Scarecrow

[Jigsaw]

F13 didn't exactly start out with Jason, Mrs. Voorhees was the original killer before Jason took her place in Friday 2, and in Saw II Amanda was made out to be the one to continue John's work after his death. While it's a stretch for either one to still be alive following Saw III's ending, it's much more of a stretch for John to still be alive. I mean since the first film he's been dying of cancer and in Saw III he looked extremely ill and weak to the point where he was practically immobile. John can still be present in prominent flashbacks throughout the rest of the series for however long it continues to go, but Amanda's arc is still very much incomplete and her character will feel pointless if she doesn't survive. Whether she's to continue being the next Jigsaw or assist with taking down John's other followers (if you believe he has multiple helpers), Amanda is needed for Saw to logically continue.

Hopefully the filmmakers are on the same page :(

[Scarecrow]

Yeah and Tommy was made out to be Jasons replacment in both Parts 4 and 5. But despite the intentions of the time, the popularity of the franchises main icon Jason/Jigsaw, means the plan is essentially abandoned.

I kind of saw this coming to be honest. A shame though.


- Scarecrow

[CosmoBubba]

I really like the Amanda character and I wouldn't argue with the character being in more sequels; I'm just worried how they'll handle it if she does come back. I speculated on the old forum that if Amanda returned for Saw 4, they could just say she'd gone into shock and passed out at the end of Saw 3. It might be a stretch, considering how much blood she was losing, but I would believe the shock angle more than I would Jigsaw somehow surviving a combination of advanced brain cancer and getting his throat cut with a circular saw.

[Ron]

Whatever they do I just hope it stays semi-realistic and doesn't go the supernatural route.

[Jigsaw]

I really like the Amanda character and I wouldn't argue with the character being in more sequels; I'm just worried how they'll handle it if she does come back. I speculated on the old forum that if Amanda returned for Saw 4, they could just say she'd gone into shock and passed out at the end of Saw 3. It might be a stretch, considering how much blood she was losing, but I would believe the shock angle more than I would Jigsaw somehow surviving a combination of advanced brain cancer and getting his throat cut with a circular saw.


I'm hoping the same. I myself believe that Amanda passed out from the shock and pain from the gunshot but didn't die right away. And Amanda surviving doesn't mean that she has to replace John as Jigsaw, she can help the cops find his other helpers and stop his legacy. I mean Amanda's role could be Saw's equivalent of Tommy Jarvis.

[Ron]

I can see how they can possibly bring her back, but I definitley don't want John to be alive because that's just too much of a stretch.

[Jigsaw]

I agree. And a lot still needs to be done with Amanda's character anyway, I mean we still know very little about her. We know plenty about John (from the sequels and the Saw: Rebirth prequel comic), but Amanda is still very underdeveloped.

[Ron]

yeah, it seems like a lot of stuff in Saw 3 were setups to reveal more about Amanda's character.

[Jigsaw]

Something that should really be delved into is Amanda's past and the abuse she suffered from her father. Also more insight into her life and how she lived prior to when John kidnapped and tester her would be great. I mean we have a general idea of what John was like before he became Jigsaw, we don't have a whole lot regarding Amanda.

[hack slash]

New Poster

http://shocktillyoudrop.com/news/topnews.php?id=1216

[Jigsaw]

I don't like that poster at all, it looks very phony IMO.

[Erik]

I give them a thousand 'LOL's for the Admiral Ackhbar reference.

[hack slash]

Shawnee's name's not on the poster so I guess that meansshe's dead

[Jigsaw]

Shawnee's name's not on the poster so I guess that meansshe's dead


Not necessarily, maybe her role is being kept a closely-guarded secret. Tobin's name wasn't on the poster for the first film either, a person's name not on the poster doesn't mean they're not in the film itself.

[MaDMaNMaRz]

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but here is the Plot Synopsis for Saw IV: Jigsaw and his apprentice Amanda are dead. Now, upon the news of Detective Kerry's murder, two seasoned FBI profilers, Agent Strahm and Agent Perez, arrive in the terrified community to assist the veteran Detective Hoffman in sifting through Jigsaw's latest grizzly remains and piecing together the puzzle. However, when SWAT Commander Rigg is abducted and thrust into a game, the last officer untouched by Jigsaw has but ninety minutes to overcome a series of demented traps and save an old friend or face the deadly consequences.

I really think they should just let this die, IMO.

[Jigsaw]

I'm not impressed by that plot either, but hopefully the movie will turn out decent and better than what's expected. I just hope this movie doesn't ruin the series any more than Saw III did :X

[Jack Bauer]

veteran Detective Hoffman.
So, in the SAWverse, your a veteran of LAPD police force when your other fellow officers are either killed in action, left to die or stabbed in the stomach then your throat is slit, or killed in a Jigsaw trap. Man, who would be crazy enough to sign up to be a Detective on the Jigsaw case. I wonder.....http://www.moviehole.net/img/lethalweapon.jpg

[CosmoBubba]

In watching Saw 3 again, it really makes me wonder if Twisted Pictures even wanted to do a fourth one. I'm sure they knew Lions Gate was going to ask them to, but Saw 3's ending (with nearly all the major recurring characters dead or dying, and the final montage of frames from all three movies) seemed to be an attempt to wrap up the whole franchise.

And call it a hunch, but I wouldn't be surprised if Leigh Whannell has a cameo in Saw 4.

[Scarecrow]

It seems to me that with Saw 2 Amanda was set up as a way to continue the franchise.

Then two things happened.

First, the usual horror failure of having an icon. Jigsaw/John had become popualr enough that most wanted to see him. He was the heart of the series. Like Jason, Pinhead and, to a lesser extent, even Michael, he came back even after they intended he was to go. Amanda became like Tommy, Julia, the anthology concept.... an 'almost ran' that was abandoned due o the popularity of the lead icon.

Second, it seems they got worried about havign an endless franchise and that Jigsaw COULDN'T be seen to keep going when he's so near to death. SO endedit as a trilogy.

Of course, with Saw 4 now happening, it suggests they have to deal with both these points and work out a way to continue.


- Scarecrow

[Jigsaw]

Amanda was introduced as John's successor very early on with Saw II's ending, when the series was still young. John differs from other killers like Freddy, Jason, Michael, etc. and I would rank him more along the lines of Mrs. Voorhees; the killer the series started out with and was done with early on but still plays an important role in the series. However, I personally wouldn't be surprised if Amanda might somehow still be alive, whether she's still John's disciple or will help to destroy his legacy.

[El Rooto]

The teaser is up at Yahoo! Movies.

[Jigsaw]

I don't like the teaser at all, very phony IMO. But maybe the movie itself won't be terrible.

[Jack Bauer]

I like the opening to the teaser. Very operamantic (SP?).

[hack slash]

here's the link
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1809856250/video/3915641/

[Scarecrow]

Amanda was introduced as John's successor very early on with Saw II's ending, when the series was still young. John differs from other killers like Freddy, Jason, Michael, etc. and I would rank him more along the lines of Mrs. Voorhees; the killer the series started out with and was done with early on but still plays an important role in the series. However, I personally wouldn't be surprised if Amanda might somehow still be alive, whether she's still John's disciple or will help to destroy his legacy.

I don't mean to be rude or anythin but I feel a lot of your problems with Saw 3 and this issue stems from that fact that you really loved the Amanda character in Part 2. Yo usay you see Jigsaw as more a Mrs Voorhees but, really, nothing has been done to suggest that. The fact that he' still the main villain seen in Part 2 (until the end) and the way Amanda's thrown aside in Part 3 suggest this isn't the case. You wrote a LOT about Amanda as a loyal apprentice after Part 2, you played the roles in RPG games. It strikes me that you built up a whole mythology and relationship between them that you assumed would play out and because the film then went against all that it's angered / annoyed you. This isn't meant as an attack, more an outside perspective on what you've said about these films and how Amanda has been characterised in the movies.


- Scarecrow

[Jigsaw]

I see your point. I was very disappointed that the film did nothing with Amanda as John's disciple, but there's so many other problems that I had with Saw III; the plodding and disjointed pace, the very boring and bland supporting characters in Jeff and Lynn (with Jeff also being completely unlikeable and unsympathetic), the beyond terrible ending, cheap and unjust send-offs for both John and Amanda, lots of hanging plot threads, and in retrospect not even the flashbacks were that great, they were mostly for show and to pad the plot, not contribute to the story or anyone's characters.

[TheCurse]

Whatever they do I just hope it stays semi-realistic and doesn't go the supernatural route.

I agree. One of the things I love about the series is the feeling in the back of your mind that someone like Jigsaw could actually exist. Kinda like the killer from "Se7en".

[Jigsaw]

***Deleted***

[hack slash]

Is John Alive or Dead? Here's your answer in this clip that they said was banned at Comic Con
http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=364606

[El Rooto]

Already posted. Rather, was posted.

[101ant101]

Saw 4 im not going to go and see this one. looks like saw1. and the kills look over done again they should of just left it as thrillogy.

[Shoesalesman]

I won a free movie pass last week and I'm going to use it for this movie. Never saw a SAW movie on the big screen yet.

[MaDMaNMaRz]

I haven't either. I always waited for them to come out on DVD. I'm going to do the same with 4.

[Killa Pimp]

I haven't either. I always waited for them to come out on DVD. I'm going to do the same with 4.

I have seen them all in the theater and plan and doing so with this one.

[FallOutGirl]

I liked Saw one and three.

As long as this ones better than number 2, I wont complain.

[Jigsaw]

I thought Saw III was awful and almost ruined the entire series. I hope Saw IV won't be anything like S3 and more like the first two.

[Toejam]

I thought Saw III was awful and almost ruined the entire series. I hope Saw IV won't be anything like S3 and more like the first two.

If I only had a nickel for every time you've said you don't like Saw III.
Your Signature should just state, "I don't Like Saw III." It would save you a lot of time/posts.

That being said, I agree, I would like IV to be more like the first two films.

[Geomonic]

I still don't know how to feel about Saw IV. I still feel bitterly disappointed with Saw III, but maybe this movie will make up for it.

I loved the first two Saws but absolutely loathed Saw III. That movie to me ruined the series badly enough to almost warrant a remake/reboot. I'm still unsure about Saw IV, but a part of me hopes it'll be at least decent and make up for Saw III.

I'm not impressed by that plot either, but hopefully the movie will turn out decent and better than what's expected. I just hope this movie doesn't ruin the series any more than Saw III did :X

I see your point. [spoiler]I was very disappointed that the film did nothing with Amanda as John's disciple, but there's so many other problems that I had with Saw III; the plodding and disjointed pace, the very boring and bland supporting characters in Jeff and Lynn (with Jeff also being completely unlikeable and unsympathetic), the beyond terrible ending, cheap and unjust send-offs for both John and Amanda, lots of hanging plot threads, and in retrospect not even the flashbacks were that great, they were mostly for show and to pad the plot, not contribute to the story or anyone's characters.

I thought Saw III was awful and almost ruined the entire series. I hope Saw IV won't be anything like S3 and more like the first two.

Heheh, that was fun. Kind of agree though. I enjoyed it, but no way near as much as the first two.

However, I went to see Disturbia today and the teaser came up, along with the trailer for Halloween and Resident Evil 3. I swear I nearly jizzed myself. It looks great on the big screen, and this'll be my first ever saw experience in the cinema. :)

[Jigsaw]

That being said, I agree, I would like IV to be more like the first two films.


I'm hoping so too. From the looks of it, S4 will bring back the "who's the killer" aspect of the first film that both S2 and S3 were missing, and from the looks of the traps, it'll be somewhat S2-esque as well.

[Toejam]

I liked how in the first two films there were people being tested together,
although they may not really have the same test,(other than survival).
In III it was all just supposedly Jeff's test with other people involved,
It didn't really matter in the long run if he saved anyone else,
they weren't being tested.

[Jigsaw]

Saw III lacked a lot of things that made the first two so compelling IMO. I hated how it basically sold out the series to the torture trend started by Hostel and forsaked the intriguing plots of the first two with torture scenes and flashbacks that were mostly an afterthought. I still haven't fully gotten over the disappointment of Saw III, but maybe Saw IV will make up for it.

[ChoKo]

The knife trap looks fucking wicked.

[DrLar]

I say stop Saw movies now! make a TV show or something.... perhaps on each episode there's a different jigsaw...

[TheCurse]

I like the "If it's Halloween......it must be Saw" line from the trailer. It reminded me how much I love film series. Back in the '80s a new installment of at least one big horror franchise came out basically every year. But they didn't come out the same time each year. The Saw series is different in that every film was/is released the end of October. That's pretty effing awesome. I like recurring themes like that. The LOTR trilogy is another example, with every film being released in December, three years in a row.

On a similar note, it feels like the past year has just flown by. It seems like just yesterday I was enjoying my second viewing of Saw III in the theater, and now in a few weeks Saw IV will be in the theater. I haven't even watched III since last year since the viewing experience is still so fresh in my mind. I get that same feeling every year around Halloween, like "It feels like the previous film didn't come out that long ago" when it has actually been a year.

Anyone else feel this way?

[Jigsaw]

I know the feeling. Although I honestly feel for next year that the filmmakers need to take a break and wait until 2009 to do another Saw film, since after a while audiences will begin to tire of the series. It happened back in the 1980s, by 1989 popular Horror sagas like F13 and NOES started losing money due to declining audience interest.

[TheCurse]

You make a good point. I think back in the '80s the studios were just trying to milk the different series for all they were worth, churning out a new film every year, and perhaps sacrificing a bit of quality in the process. I agree that even some hardcore fans of the Saw series will tire of it if the studio follows the lead of F13 and produces eight films in a nine-year span. But like Rowan says in JX, "In the end, it always comes down to money..."

[Jigsaw]

That, and S3 felt very rushed. The script was written in under a week and it showed painfully in the film. Instead of rushing the next films to get out by October of the next year, they should just take a year off and let the series rest. It's not going anywhere and the fans aren't either.

[Jack Bauer]

I think there were scripts, which were written in less time, and they still made great films out of them.

[hack slash]

I think there were scripts, which were written in less time, and they still made great films out of them.

Batman and Robin was written by Schumacher and Goldsman on a 2 hr plane flight:D

seriously though I've yet to see a SAW film in theaters

[Jigsaw]

I saw Parts 2 and 3 in the theater (Part 2 twice), didn't see the original in theaters.

[The Dream Master]

Heh. I remember being hyped for the first Saw because of Danny Fucking Glover. That, and the premise was intriguing. Hard to believe we're up to part IV already.

[Toejam]

I've seen them all in the theater so far, and I will see IV there also.

There weren't very many people at the theater when I saw the first film, but it was packed for II and III.
I'm trying not to get my expectations set to high for IV. I find my enjoyment of watching a film for the first time to be directly correlated to my expectations.
If I expect a great film but only get a good one I feel disappointed.

[MaDMaNMaRz]

I bought the new issue of Fangoria today. They still aren't really saying anything about the plot. The only thing they mention is that Jigsaw and Amanda are indeed alive. I still doubt i'm going to see this in theaters.

[jayTL]

Saw them all opening day (Saw 2 and 3 midnight). will see this one opening day, but not midnight.

[Jigsaw]

I bought the new issue of Fangoria today. They still aren't really saying anything about the plot. The only thing they mention is that Jigsaw and Amanda are indeed alive.


Jigsaw is most definitely dead being that we see his autopsy in the new clip, but Amanda's definite fate isn't known.

[El Rooto]

Oh, c'mon. I thought you, a huge Saw fan, would have figured it out!

It was his like-minded twin brother that was taken apart in the clip! I mean, really...

[Jigsaw]

You see his brain surgery incision and sawed throat wound in the autopsy clip...

[Apocalypto]

Saw III lacked a lot of things that made the first two so compelling IMO. I hated how it basically sold out the series to the torture trend started by Hostel and forsaked the intriguing plots of the first two with torture scenes and flashbacks that were mostly an afterthought. I still haven't fully gotten over the disappointment of Saw III, but maybe Saw IV will make up for it.

SAW II was by far the closest to 'torture porn' than 3 was and was more rushed...and it's been too long since having this redundant argument, I was starting to miss it.:)

I thought it should've ended as a trilogy and was pretty down on SAW IV for a while, but I'm getting really into it. I can't wait to see who's pulling the strings, and the trailers aren't nearly as lazy on LG part as the SAW promos.

Bousman has said it'll be like SAW II.

[Jigsaw]

To me, the first two Saws are nothing like torture films at all. They may have some aspects of torture in them, but the torture was never the showcase and it never deterred from the plot, unlike with Saw III. Saw III pretty much degenerated the series into a Hostel rip-off.

Hearing that Saw IV will be more like Saw II leaves me feeling a little more optimistic. It sounds like this film will be like a mix of the first two, which makes me happy. And if Amanda is alive I'll be one happy camper.

[Apocalypto]

The first one wasn't since we only really saw glimpses of the traps, SAW II however shoves brutal violence with people that we know next to nothing about in our face with no realy psychology behind the traps; SAW III also shoves brutal violence in our faces, however there's far more psychology to it.
IE. Obi crawling into an oven really had nothing to do with his character or any emotional journey, nor did Addison slashing her wrists in a razor box; unlike Jeff having to decide whether to let someone die or burn his son's possessions; the only real character specific trap in II was Xavior's needle pit which ended up becoming Amanda's game, each trap in SAW III was specific to Jeff's psychological connection to the character, and John's brain surgery sequence was revealed something about him while setting up an essential flashback that played into Amanda's character arc).
Simply being very gory hardly qualifies as a "Hostel rip off," since Hostel neither invented nor perfected cinematic gore. SAW III did the same thing SAW has been doing all along since prior to Hostel's existence. It's also a common rule of thumb that horror franchises tend to amp up the gore as they go on, look at the Friday and Halloween sequels compared to their originals, it's been happening many, many years before Hostel.

SAW III was combined the best elements of the first two with the cerebral side of SAW and the visceral side of SAW II.

I don't know if Amanda's alive, but the recent Fangoria indicated that she has a rather large role.
ADDED:
Why not? Halloween III didn't have Michael Myers.
The real answer is $$$$$$$$.
They will pump'em out until they don't make money.
Rumor is they are planning Saw V and VI.

That's not just a rumor.

They're confirmed, how quickly they go into production depends on the success of SAW IV.

[The Dark Vampire]

They're confirmed, how quickly they go into production depends on the success of SAW IV.

5 will be out next year and 6 the year after I think they want to have one out every Halloween for the next 3 years at least if 4-6 do well enough you can expect a few more of them as well.

[The Dream Master]

Holy shit, welcome back JD2000. This thread will be back to normal in no time.

[Apocalypto]

Holy shit, welcome back JD2000. This thread will be back to normal in no time.

Thanks...:)
ADDED:
Spoilerish picture below...

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/5798/mathsgs5.jpg

[The Dream Master]

Apparently, spoiler-tags don't work on pics. You might just want to link to that picture.

[hack slash]

I for one hope Amanda is indeed DEAD she isn't needed

[Jigsaw]

The first one wasn't since we only really saw glimpses of the traps, SAW II however shoves brutal violence with people that we know next to nothing about in our face with no realy psychology behind the traps; SAW III also shoves brutal violence in our faces, however there's far more psychology to it.
IE. Obi crawling into an oven really had nothing to do with his character or any emotional journey, nor did Addison slashing her wrists in a razor box; unlike Jeff having to decide whether to let someone die or burn his son's possessions; the only real character specific trap in II was Xavior's needle pit which ended up becoming Amanda's game, each trap in SAW III was specific to Jeff's psychological connection to the character, and John's brain surgery sequence was revealed something about him while setting up an essential flashback that played into Amanda's character arc).
Simply being very gory hardly qualifies as a "Hostel rip off," since Hostel neither invented nor perfected cinematic gore. SAW III did the same thing SAW has been doing all along since prior to Hostel's existence. It's also a common rule of thumb that horror franchises tend to amp up the gore as they go on, look at the Friday and Halloween sequels compared to their originals, it's been happening many, many years before Hostel.

SAW III was combined the best elements of the first two with the cerebral side of SAW and the visceral side of SAW II.


Saw II had plenty of psychology behind the violence. The "what would you do in this situation" aspect of the original movie was amplified, with eight people having to work together in an environment fitted with deadly traps everywhere, all with the intent of trying to get their antitodes to save themselves. Not to mention with time running out and tension brewing between the prisoners, the stakes were amped even more.

Saw III had great potential to be more psychological than Saw II, but everything was executed terribly.

[Apocalypto]

There was psychology to Eric's overall game, but no specific psychology to the traps that the people inside the house encounter throughout the film. Like I said, Obi crawling into an oven meant nothing to any character arc, nor did Addison cutting her wrists in a razor box, that was more violence for the sake of it than anything in SAW III was.

You're entitled to your opinion, but saying it was executed terribly over and over isn't much of a counter to the specific points presented against it. It's basically just hate for the sake of hating (rather common amongst Amanda fans when it comes to SAW III).

There is no specific trap in SAW II that's as character driven as the people that Jeff encounters throughout SAW III; the victims in SAW II were shallow stereotypes that die in violent ways that were basically there as fillers for Eric's game, where as the people in Jeff's specifically relate to his character arc.

[Jigsaw]

There is psychology behind Obi and Addison's traps, it showed the desperation and amping stakes as time ran out and no-one got their antitodes.

I felt Saw III's concept was an interesting idea but it was badly executed in the film, due to Jeff's poor development and unlikeability and the tediousness of his subplot. It was a good idea that didn't work at all in the film itself.

[Apocalypto]

By psychologically I'm referring to how the trap specifically pertains to the character, which in the case of Obi and Addison, it does not at all. Those traps had nothing to do with their personalities (what little they had), they could've just as easily been traps for anybody.
Of course the traps showed desperation, any trap someone has a limited amount of time to get out of before they die shows that, that doesn't make it psychological or character driven, as having to choose between saving the life of the man the freed your childs killer or burning your sons possessions is).

Jeff had plenty of development and we see much more into his life than we did with anyone in the house SAW II, he wasn't any more unlikeable than anyone else that had all of those problems bearing down on them in their lives would've been.

[Jigsaw]

Jeff had no personality whatsoever to him. He felt like he was there to fill in the scenery and had the "grieving father" stigma attached to him to make him seem more important, but the movie did a very poor job of developing him and giving him any interesting qualities. It even showed in Angus' performance that he was frustrated with the material in the script (or rather what little material there was). It's not Angus' fault at all, it's the weak and rushed writing (bear in mind that Saw III was written in under a week).

[DRE]

Grave Digger vs. Judasdracula2000: The Saga Continues.

You guys are never gonna agree on this subject, the only comfort that you can take is that the Saw films (So far) have all been well executed and have many layers of thought and intrigue built into each story. Leigh Whannell rules!

I personally would take the original Saw over either sequel because nothing beats that first time, but there are things I love about each film. With that said, I do find myself watching Saw II more than the others, not for any psychological intrigue but because I find that one the most entertaining of the bunch. Donnie and Tobin really chew the scenery in that one.

[Jigsaw]

I too also find Saw II to be the most entertaining film of the series, by a long shot. From the traps in the house, John and Eric's interrogation and Amanda's vastly-expanded role, along with it's great ending, it'll always be the definitive Saw movie to me.

[Apocalypto]

Jeff had no personality whatsoever to him. He felt like he was there to fill in the scenery and had the "grieving father" stigma attached to him to make him seem more important, but the movie did a very poor job of developing him and giving him any interesting qualities. It even showed in Angus' performance that he was frustrated with the material in the script (or rather what little material there was). It's not Angus' fault at all, it's the weak and rushed writing (bear in mind that Saw III was written in under a week).

He had the personality of someone that was struggling with their anger over personal relationships and the loss of a child, giving a great parrellel with Amanda for one of the primary themes for the film showing how much anger can become like an addictive drug and not only be self-destructive, but hurt everyone else around you.

MacFadyen's performance was fantastic, his heartbreak when he touches the face of the first victim and cries out for the forgiveness of the man that ran over his son are two of the best acting moments of the series. He's the only one throughout the trilogy that's on par with Tobin and Shawnee. Of course frustration is visible throughout his performance, since it's an important part of the character.

Someone that loves SAW II is hardly any place to be lambasting SAW III for being a rush job and having litte material for the characters, since SAW II is full of "characters" lifted straight out of a COPS episode, and was just as rushed, altering an entirely different script to turn it into a SAW film to pump it into theatres asap.

[Jigsaw]

Most of Saw II's characters may have been underdeveloped but most of them had at least had personality that made up for their lack of characterization. I'll remember characters like Daniel, Obi, Jonas, Laura, Addison and Xavier much more than Jeff and Lynn. And both Saw sequels were rushed but at least with Saw II, Leigh Whannell did a solid job of adapting Darren's script for The Desperate into S2, whereas with Saw III, he half-assed the entire movie.

[Alex DeLarge]

altering an entirely different script to turn it into a SAW film to pump it into theatres asap.

While I agree SAW III dominates SAW II, I think this can somehow help a franchise. It allows you to twist how far you can go. The best Hellraiser after the first two is re-written from another script. One of my favorite Doctor Who authors, Lance Parkin, says he often thinks of a very un-Who idea and then tries to make it work as a Who story (his biggest example being Father Time) because it stretches what you can do as a DW story. I think it works in the same way. Still, SAW III is better.:p

[Apocalypto]

They had a very one dimensional, stereotypical personality. We didn't see into their lives at all, since even Bousman would admitt they were only there as fillers.
Like Jeff and Lynn or not we actually saw into their lives, they were characters and not walking cliches that we know no more about by the end of the film that we did when we first met them.

If SAW III was half-assed, then SAW II was about 25%-assed.
ADDED:
While I agree SAW III dominates SAW II, I think this can somehow help a franchise. It allows you to twist how far you can go. The best Hellraiser after the first two is re-written from another script. One of my favorite Doctor Who authors, Lance Parkin, says he often thinks of a very un-Who idea and then tries to make it work as a Who story (his biggest example being Father Time) because it stretches what you can do as a DW story. I think it works in the same way. Still, SAW III is better.:p

I didn't really have a problem with it and I still love SAW II, I'm just pointing out as an example of how SAW II was just as rushed.

[Jigsaw]

Having screentime and insight into a person's background doesn't always add to their characterization. Both Jeff and Lynn had no personality and I couldn't get attached to them. Saw II's supporting characters were at least interesting or entertaining to watch, unlike Jeff and Lynn who were both boring as Hell.

[Apocalypto]

Yes actually, that's pretty much the definition of characterization. They had personalities, they were very emotionally drained parents dealing with their sense of loss, and in Lynn's case in particular abusing what they still had left, and Lynn is crucial to Amanda's character arc, and Jeff encounters three people throuhgout the film that all play into very emotionally and psychologically driven traps, more so than anyone in the previous two films (none of the victims in SAW or SAW II are in traps that are as character specific as the ones in Jeff's game), as well as his parrallel with Amanda regarding the destructive nature of anger.

Addison...was the sexy latina prostitute with an attitude...Laura was the little crying white girl...Obi was the bald guy that we know nothing about...Xavior was the big dumb, brute latin drug dealer....Jonas the nice, can't we all just get all along black guy....far more one dimensional and underdeveloped than the core characters of SAW III.

[Jigsaw]

Saw II's characters are much more entertaining and interesting than both Jeff and Lynn combined. Hell, a brick is more interesting than those two.

[Apocalypto]

Again, not much of an actual point that in any way pertains to filmmaking there.
I guess if you find cliche'd, one-D sterotypes that we know next to nothing about over fleshed out characters that we see into the lives of, than yes, SAW II definitely has much better characterization than SAW III.

[Jigsaw]

Your opinion.

[Apocalypto]

Yes, that I support with specific points from both films.

[Jigsaw]

I back myself up too. Thing is, we both have vastly different views and we'll never change each other's opinion. Let's just stop, we both know where we stand on Saw III.

[DRE]

To be fair to Saw II and Leigh and Darren, Saw II was there to open up the world of Jigsaw and it did that very well. Saw II was very much about Eric Matthews and his sins so the other characters really had no time for development whereas Jeff and Lynn had the whole story alongside Amanda, even John took a backseat. Now, had Saw II been solely about Eric Matthews trapped in that house having to go through tests to save Daniel then I'm sure this argument between you two would not exist.

[Jigsaw]

Correct. Plus, every movie will always have it's share of underdeveloped characters.

[Apocalypto]

To be fair to Saw II and Leigh and Darren, Saw II was there to open up the world of Jigsaw and it did that very well. Saw II was very much about Eric Matthews and his sins so the other characters really had no time for development whereas Jeff and Lynn had the whole story alongside Amanda, even John took a backseat. Now, had Saw II been solely about Eric Matthews trapped in that house having to go through tests to save Daniel then I'm sure this argument between you two would not exist.

Indeed, which is why I stress how much stronger Lynn and Jeff are from a characterization standpoint, and how much more specifically relevant the games in SAW III were to the characters; SAW II had quite a few filler characters/traps, hence lambasting SAW III for its shallow and rushed characterization while at the same time praising SAW II is rather inane.

I'm well aware of what they were trying to do, and yes they did do it very well, but none the less SAW III is a much deeper film from a characterization pov than II is.

We do not see nearly as much into the characters lives in SAW II, nor are their traps nearly as specifically relevant to their lives.

[Jigsaw]

You can make the same argument for Saw III. What about Troy and Kerry's traps? Kerry's entire death sequence felt like it was purely for a gory spectacle and did a poor job of wrapping up her story to top it all off.

[Apocalypto]

Troy's was about how far he's willing to go to break the chains of imprisonment that he's gone back to over and over, and Kerry's was about how empty she is on the inside...and they were there to show how out of hand Amanda was getting with her growing urge to tear things apart because shedding her own blood wasn't enough anymore, so naturally they were going to very gory; they were a part of her character arc.

Kerry was always just a side character and never had much of a story going on to begin with other than being the women looking for Jigsaw. Side characters are generally wrapped up as a part of a more important characters arc.

Obi crawling into an oven and Addison cutting her wrists on razor box was a part of noones character arc.

[Jigsaw]

Obi was an arsonist who's trap involved him being trapped inside a burning furnace. That mirrors his crimes pretty well. Addison getting trapped inside the Razor Box showed how the desperation of the situation inside the house led to poor decision-making on the part of the players trapped inside.

Kerry may have never been that vital a character to the storyline, but she was involved with the Jigsaw case from the start and had her affair with Eric, which Saw III didn't dwell on and make clearer. Not to mention she dies within the first twenty minutes with no real closure to her storyline.

[Apocalypto]

The film never even stated that Obi was an arsonist; and again, any situation that you have to get out of in a short period of time or die shows desperation. You can apply that to any trap.

There was nothing to dwell on, they had an affair, it cost Eric his marriage, she got him involved in a case that resulted him in going missing and SAW III showed her guilt over it, and used her and Troy to further the arc of a more important character. Case closed.

[Jigsaw]

It was stated by the filmmakers that Obi was an arsonist/pyromaniac.

Yes, there was plenty to dwell on regarding Kerry's character, namely more on her affair with Eric and how it ruined both of their lives and careers. I'm not saying Kerry should've been a survivor, but she shouldn't have been killed so soon into the movie and with no resolution to her storyline.

[Apocalypto]

I know it was stated by the filmmakers but if it's not even included in the film it's certainly not a big credit to the strong characterization.

Which was already established, there was nothing left to resolve. III showed her guilt over what had been established about her and used her to further a more important character. They're not going to take focus off of the story just to show us an affair that we already knew about anyway that serves no purpose other than showing us what was already established..again, about a rather un-important side character.

She was killed off soon because she was never a part of the main story.

[Jigsaw]

Kerry an unimportant side character? Well, she was involved with the series from the start, established as being involved with the Jigsaw case, and in Saw II we learned of her affair with Eric and her expertise on the case. While not overly vital to the storyline, she wasn't useless to it either.

[Apocalypto]

Yes, and Barney was involved in the Hannibal Lecter series from the start, and much like Kerry he's only a side character, never meant to have much of the story focused on him.

No, she wasn't useless, she was a part of Eric's character in SAW II, and Amanda's in SAW III. She was useful to expand on more important characters than herself.

[Jigsaw]

If that's the case then the same can apply to the characters in Saw II, they were there to expend the storyline for Eric and Daniel. You've got to put it into perspective.

[Apocalypto]

Yes, they were, I've pointed that out numerous times. I didn't say that they were totally useless, I said they were shallow and one-dimensional.

[Alex DeLarge]

Ah, it wouldn't be F13 without these two arguing over SAW III. :p

[Jigsaw]

I feel the same way about Jeff and Lynn, I found then both to be shallow and weak characters.

[Apocalypto]

But again, I gave numerous specific points to how much we saw into their lives; there are no examples of that for the people in the house in SAW II, since they were nothing but walking stereotypes.

[DRE]

Let me moderate this debate for a moment please, I have two questions for you guys. What's the main thing each of you hate about the particular Saw film you say is inferior? And tell me why you believe the other is sticking up for the particular film they are?

That should provide some insight into this debate.

[Apocalypto]

I don't hate SAW II at all, I love each installment, I just love each one more than the last.
The point of comparison I'm making is how much more well characterized Jeff and Lynn are than the people in the house in SAW II, since I'm debating with someone that feels that SAW III is so shallow and lacking in emotional and psychological punch, while at the same time loving SAW II with a passion, when it has less of a psychological and emotional punch and less character depth.

[Jigsaw]

That's purely opinion. I hate Saw III for a number of reasons, mainly because I found it very boring and unengaging compared with the intriguing first film and the energetic second film, and despite Amanda getting a bigger role the film did nothing with it. The concept of her being the next Jigsaw, which Saw II worked so hard to build up on, was pretty much wasted here. All we see is Amanda being emotionally unstable with some occasional leadership-like qualities, but no real development or growth for her. The flashbacks, while cool to see, ultimately felt pointless and like they were there to pad the plot (the Jaw Splitter flashback for instance. Jazzy, but did it add anything to anyone's character? No).

I've already stated that both Jeff and Lynn were weak characters, and other things I hate about Saw III include the ending, the fact that the torture became the focal point and pretty much sold Saw out to the torture trend that Hostel started (Darren even stated in interviews that Saw III would compete with Hostel gore-wise prior to S3 going into production). And putting aside my hated of Jeff's character, my disliking of Lynn and my hatred for the ending and the film as a whole, the movie is riddled with other problems, with includes a plodding and awkward pace, cheap and unsatisfying character arcs, lots of unanswered questions and plot threads, etc.

[Apocalypto]

And like I've pointed out numerous times, you're disdain for the film centers around the fact that SAW II works out great for Amanda, and SAW III doesn't. Of course you'll insist to no end that you'd hate the film anyway and that Amanda's fate is not the primary foundation for it, but that claim really doesn't hold up when you go on about how shallow and lacking in psychological edge SAW III is and have no actual counter when someone offers specific points of how it's not the case other than to repeatedly remind us of how much you despise SAW III.

Yes, you've stated that they're weak characters while at the same time praising a film with far weaker ones. "Oh but that's just your opinion," Yes, it is, an opinion that I support with specific points regarding the filmmaking from both films. "But I do that do that to," to a certain extent, but you also often just disregard any points that you don't have a counter for and respond with more SAW III bashing (I say bashing rather than criticism, because criticism actually has specific points regarding the filmmaking to support it, bashing is just "it was weak...it was boring...I hated it!" Just hate for the sake of hate basically.

Amanda becoming the new Jigsaw wasn't wasted at all, what they did was form a charater arc based on what had been established about her in the previous films. Considering all that she had been through it, it fit perfectly with the character that she had violent urges that began with hurting herself and then turned outward toward others. SAW III was the culmination of what was going on in her life in the 2 previous installments.

The flashbacks were anything but pointless, the flashback to the bathroom was there to show how hard this was for her when she first started helping John, the flashback to her killing Adam showed what it felt like for her the first time she killed someone, we see a later stage of it when she goes back for Eric...the flashbacks showed her progression as a killer, as did her self-cutting later turning into tearing apart others.
The jaw-trap flashback showed her first encounter with John after passing her test, it showed him welcoming her, the beginning of their relationship, a relationship that's vital to SAW III.
To say Amanda showed no growth as a character in SAW III is ludacris. In SAW II she's basically just the woman from SAW. In SAW III she's the progression of a once normal woman into an unstable killer. It's no coincidence that the character got much more reaction from both those that love her and those that hate her after SAW III came out.

The torture was not at all the focal point, yet again, I've given quite a few specific examples of the psychology behind every single visceral sequence in SAW III, and how much more character driven they are than the violence in SAW II, to which you have nothing better to fire back with than again bashing SAW III.
I don't just say SAW II had shallow characters, I explain why they're shallow. I don't merely bash for the sake of bashing.

Debate is like this.
Point - Counterpoint
This is how you're debating
Point - Counterpoint - Resort right back to the point that was just countered

Yes, it's a matter of opinion, but your opinion ignores specific points from both films, because you're blinded by hate.
If Jeff and Lynn were precisely the same characters, and every single trap were precisely the same, but the film worked in Amanda's favor, I can guarantee you that we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Jigsaw]

Look man, we've been over this before and I'm in no mood to go over it again. We both know where we stand on Saw III and how we feel about it. I hate it and have given my reasons time and time again as to why I hate it and feel it killed and disgraced the series. Let's just end it and keep this thread for whatever latest Saw IV news comes out, which is what it was intended for in the first place. There's no use in beating a dead horse.

[Andiac]

Yes, it's a matter of opinion, but your opinion ignores specific points from both films, because you're blinded by hate.

That's pretty offensive I think.

Let him have his opinion, like you have yours. End of the day people feel differently. Just cos Jigsaw doesn't like the movies you like doesn't stop you liking them.

Great discussion, but don't be mean. :( Makes me sad.

On with Saw 4!

[Apocalypto]

That's pretty offensive I think.

Let him have his opinion, like you have yours. End of the day people feel differently. Just cos Jigsaw doesn't like the movies you like doesn't stop you liking them.

Great discussion, but don't be mean. :( Makes me sad.

On with Saw 4!

It's no more mean than what another poster pointed out earlier in the thread when he said "you might as well just change your username to 'IHateSAWIII,' it's merely a rather obvious observation.

[The Dream Master]

Wow, I just saw a TV spot for this bitch on MNF. That was totally random and unexpected.

[francesco]

I can't really wait for this! I loved Saw III better than Saw II. I'm sure they'll make a great movie.

[hack slash]

I saw the TV spot as well and Jigsaw is still very dead as I hope Amanda is as well

[TheCurse]

What was the TV spot like? The only promos I've seen are the autopsy spot and the trailer where the guy at the end is walking around and is attacked by the Jigsaw-costumed person behind the plastic.

[Jigsaw]

The TV spot is the same as the [spoiler]autopsy clip but it removes the gore, replaces the word "Fuck" with "Hell" and has a couple of additional shots (nothing significant).

[TheCurse]

I was browsing Yahoo! Movies and I noticed that Saw III has at least four distinct trailers/spots (anyone know of others?). The site also lists the dates the clips were added, and I assume those dates at least roughly correspond to when the studios made the clips available. So in the case of Saw III, one trailer was released last August, one last September, and two last October. I hope that we get two new Saw IV trailers next month.

I also noticed that in one of the S3 trailers the phrase "If it's Halloween it must be Saw" is voiced-over while in the S4 trailer it shows that phrase onscreen with no voiceover. It's cool how they used the phrase again. I hope that in the new S4 trailers we get a few more Jigsaw voiceovers, because the Jigsaw voice is just greatness.

[Jigsaw]

I'm sure in the next three weeks leading up to S4's release a lot more clips and other promotional items will be released to the public.

[hack slash]

new stills from SAW IV
http://www.shocktillyoudrop.com/news/topnews.php?id=1456

[ChoKo]

Does anyone know if they are gonna to release a new Saw III DVD (2-Disc Special Edition?) to coincide with the release of IV?

I thought I heard something about it a while back, but I forgot.

[Jigsaw]

Yes, a two-disc Director's Cut DVD of Saw III will be released on October 23rd.

[The Dream Master]

Choko, yes, and I believe this release is going to be the true director's cut (the one DLB wanted to release to theaters before it was cut down).

[ChoKo]

Well, that's good news. Thanks for the info guys.

[Cody]

new stills from SAW IV
http://www.shocktillyoudrop.com/news/topnews.php?id=1456

That doesn't really look like Zep to me.

To me he looks like an actor who I've seen playing "strange, creepy European guy" in something... I just wish I could remember what the hell movie it was so I could figure out who I'm thinking of.

[Apocalypto]

Choko, yes, and I believe this release is going to be the true director's cut (the one DLB wanted to release to theaters before it was cut down).

Well it's only about 7 minutes longer, Bousman shot a 3 hour version.

[The Dream Master]

Well it's only about 7 minutes longer, Bousman shot a 3 hour version.

From Wikipedia (I know, it's Wikipedia, but it has a quoted source):

This will be the definitive version of Saw III as Darren Lynn Bousman had originally intended (prior to being forced to edit the film 7 times by the MPAA to achieve the R rating for the theatrical release) with a total running time of 120 minutes.

I'm thinking DLB had three hour's worth of material, but the definative, edited version is only about 2 hours.

[CosmoBubba]

I'm watching Comedy Central right now, and they just aired four ads for the movie during one commercial break. They aired three five-second bits of the Billy puppet laughing, edited to look like they were pirated transmissions, then aired a regular 30-second commercial just before returning to the show.

Randomly inserting those five-second bits into commercial breaks sounds like it could make for a neat viral marketing campaign.

[Jigsaw]

I saw two spots for Saw IV this past Saturday while watching America's Most Wanted.

[Scarecrow]

I may be somewhat low on cash at the moment but nothing can stop me going to see this. Seen the previous three at the cinema and I hope to see the entire series, however long it may last. Saw really has become, in a sense, a modern F13th, doing for the current trend of gorenography what Jason did for te slasher trend back then.

- Scarecrow

[Jigsaw]

http://www.bloody-disgusting.com/news/10039


The Saw IV soundtrack has been revealed. Kind of disappointing IMO, I wish it would've had more of Charlie Clouser's score and better bands on there :meh:

[Apocalypto]

They never include more than one of Clouser's cues on the albums, I think they release full score albums, but they're never in stores and very rare.

[CosmoBubba]

And even then, the Clouser stuff they include on the soundtracks is usually just the newest remix of the Saw theme song.

[Jigsaw]

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=19295168


New trailer. Not bad, much better than the lame one that was first released.

[Jigsaw]

Two new trailers have been released:


http://www.break.com/saw4/saw-4-little-trap.html
http://www.break.com/saw4/saw-4-final-puzzle.html


You can see Eric Matthews pretty clearly there.

[TheCurse]

Those trailers are short but sweet. I also found another trailer on that site:

http://www.break.com/saw4/it-must-be-saw.html

And yes, I believe I saw Detective Matthews in the other trailer, even though the cuts were so quick it was difficult to tell.

[Jigsaw]

Click the following link at your own risk, as it reveals the full cast list:

http://lionsgatepublicity.com/epk/saw4/docs/pro_notes.doc

It appears Amanda is indeed back, although whether she's alive or dead remains to be seen. Paul from S1 is returning along with Amanda's "cell mate" from the first film, as well as Gus, Michael and Addison from Saw II and Troy from Saw III. Kerry is in the film as well, although whether she's confined to flashbacks or she's just a corpse, I don't know.

[TheCurse]

In those production notes Gregg Hoffman is listed as a producer. Forgive me, but didn't he die after Saw II was released? Maybe they're saying Saw IV was already in the planning stages in late 2005 and he helped with that?

Also in those production notes it gives the synopsis, but doesn't say anything about Jeff. The ending of Saw III made it seem like Jeff had to play another game to save his daughter, so you would think he would be a major character. Or maybe he just has a few minutes of screen time to help tie up loose ends? It might be like the end of Saw II, where it seems like Detective Matthews is about to play a game of his own, but he's barely featured in Saw III. I guess it wouldn't make sense to have Jeff be a large part of both Saw III and IV. Guess I just answered my own question. ;)

[Jigsaw]

Although Gregg Hoffman died shortly after Saw II's release (R.I.P.), I believe the crew at Twisted Pictures intend to always give him a producer credit, since he was a major driving force behind TP and the Saw films, and the first Saw probanly would've never been made without him.

As for Jeff, I'm willing to bet we'll see him in the opening scene, and who knows if he'll be featured throughout more of the film.

[DRE]

Hoffman is listed out of respect. He was responsible for bringing the whole thing together so his name will be there for as long as the films are made, and rightfully so.

[Jigsaw]

Hoffman is listed out of respect. He was responsible for bringing the whole thing together so his name will be there for as long as the films are made, and rightfully so.



Exactly. Without Gregg Hoffman, Saw wouldn't exist and James Wan, Leigh Whannell and Darren Lynn Bousman may have not had filmmaking careers.

[Jack Bauer]

Your exactly right DRE And Grave. Without him there would be no SAW.

http://www.break.com/saw4/saw-4-final-puzzle.html
Also two things:

The final shot of Jigsaw in that trailer makes me think that his eyes will open.

Also after the shot I heard a slight 24 clock bleep. Any one else catch that little sound?

[Jigsaw]

John/Jigsaw is dead for a fact, seeing as we see his autopsy in the other clip. He will however be featured in flashbacks throughout this movie and the next two sequels as well.

[Jack Bauer]

Hell, I know that but what I was saying was that last shot seemed like his eyes were going open and he becomes Zombie Jigsaw :side:.

[Jigsaw]

I doubt they'll ever go that route but you never know.

Also, notice how Obi isn't on the cast list, even though it's been stated numerous times that Obi's past will be explored in this movie along with his connection to John...

[Jack Bauer]

Maybe they're pulling a Donnie and keep him hidden.

[Jigsaw]

I was thinking the same thing.

[Apocalypto]

They could pull some way out there twist and have the autopsy body be an extremely life-like dummy and not actually John.

[Jigsaw]

That's possible but that would be kind of lame IMO.

[The Dream Master]

You know, they better keep Jigsaw dead, if only because it'll make them do something new and different with the series. While I didn't really dislike Saw III, it started to show that the series is becoming stale. If anything, the fourth film already is injected with a bit of intrigue because I honestly have no clue where the series is going from here (and that's a good thing, in this case).

[El Rooto]

That's why I'm really looking forward to IV.

And I thought it's public knowledge that Jigsaw is dead. Must we wrap it in secure little boxes?

[The Dream Master]

I spoiled it in the off-chance that some people might not have seen part three yet, but I guess they should know by now.

[TheCurse]

I put mine in spoiler tags because some people in this thread said that the ending of Saw III was not definitive, as in Jigsaw could've survived the saw to the throat. However, since some of the trailers show the autopsy clip, maybe it's okay to not use the tags. Mods, what are your views on using spoiler tags for content that's readily available in trailers?

[The Dream Master]

At the old forum, we were still spoiler-tagging stuff for Saw III at the time of the meltdown (even in the Saw IV thread) because it technically is a recent film. Now that it's been a year, however, I think it's alright to talk about Saw III without spoilers.

As for trailer material, spoiler-tag it anyway. There might actually be some members who abstain from seeing even trailers, so just to be safe, keep it tagged.

[Jigsaw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoMweXDfbXc


New clip, revealing the Knife Chair trap (thanks to True Enemy from the House Of Jigsaw message board for putting it on YouTube and allowing me to post it here. Make sure to rate and comment on the clip on there).

Cool clip, and Tobin is very menacing in this particular scene, John is so cold this time.

[DRE]

They really ended this series too soon. That is the John we should have seen in Saw II, let's see the man in action before you conclude. It's really no fun to see it after the fact. But I am still very excited to see how this unfolds, and I want to stay spoiler free until opening night.

[Jack Bauer]

Just one word after seeing that clip:

DAMM!

[Jigsaw]

They really ended this series too soon. That is the John we should have seen in Saw II, let's see the man in action before you conclude. It's really no fun to see it after the fact. But I am still very excited to see how this unfolds, and I want to stay spoiler free until opening night.


Same here, except I feel we should've seen John like this in Saw III. He's colder than ever in that clip, with the way he casually describes the trap to Cecil and speaks to him as if he's nothing more than a guinea pig being used in a science test.

I definitely agree that Saw III would've ended the series too soon and left too many plot threads hanging. In a way, I'm glad Saw is continuing, although my hopes will be higher if Amanda lives.
ADDED:
Another clip, this one of the woman in the scalping chair and pig mask: http://movies.break.com/saw4/trap.html


The code to view the clip is 1026.

[DRE]

To me, the original Saw ended with III. This is a new beginning, even if it's still dealing with...him.

[Jigsaw]

Saw ended for me with Saw II. That film to me is the ultimate Saw movie, although Saw IV is in a position to top that.

Also, regarding Amanda, in this brief interview with Shawnee Smith, she doesn't reveal a thing regarding Amanda (not even if she's alive or dead) and seems rather enthusiastic. A sign that Amanda may still be alive after all?


http://www.fearnet.com/Video.aspx?mid=d1da5c37-a767-49a1-9807-5bd1befcbf5a

[DRE]

That's why I want to stay spoiler free, I want to be surprised by everything.

[CosmoBubba]

(Spoiler-tagged, just in case.)

That YouTube video of the knife chair trap reminds me of the idea behind the waffle iron trap that was planned for - but went unused in - Saw 2. I guess they just decided to take that old idea and expand upon it.

[Jigsaw]

I know the feeling, Dre. The ending for the first film was spoiled for me not long before I saw it, and ever since, I've been very sensitive to certain movie spoilers. I definitely think the Saw films work stronger with the less you know about each film, especially regarding the twists and endings.

Seeing as Saw II's Addison is back for flashbacks, I wonder if we'll see the unused Waffle Grill Iron Trap somewhere in this film?

[hack slash]

Can you last all night with Jigsaw
http://www.shocktillyoudrop.com/news/topnews.php?id=1628

Select Theaters Book Saw Marathon
Source: 'Notfabio'October 17, 2007


Can you pull an all-nighter with Jigsaw? A Shock reader has informed us that an estimated one hundred select theaters across the country will present "Saw Marathon" screenings.

On the eve of Saw IV's release, participating multiplexes (list to come) are going to present every "Saw" film to date beginning October 25th at 6pm. This way you can take notes and follow exactly what the hell is goin' down when part four unravels before your weary, bloodshot eyes.

I remember when theaters pulled together an event like this for the entire "Star Trek" film series just before "Part V: The Final Frontier" arrived - everyone took a lunch break during the third act of Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

We're not sure if this "Saw Marathon" is a one-time event, but Fandango has already established a page through which you can reserve tickets beginning, we've heard, Friday or Monday. One admission gets you into all four films.

[Apocalypto]

EDIT...............

[The Dark Vampire]

I'll watch part 1-3 on DVD the day(s)-Night(s) before anyway I always watch the other parts to a movie when going to watch a sequel.

1) it gets you really in the mood

2) it refreshes your memory of some little thing what might not of seemed important at the time but does later on in a sequel (the Saw movies more so than most others)

[it_must_be_SAW]

I'll watch part 1-3 on DVD the day(s)-Night(s) before anyway I always watch the other parts to a movie when going to watch a sequel.

1) it gets you really in the mood

2) it refreshes your memory of some little thing what might not of seemed important at the time but does later on in a sequel (the Saw movies more so than most others)

I always do that too. Man I can't wait until SAW IV comes out. Just 8 more days... Holy shit! :eek:

[TheCurse]

I'll watch part 1-3 on DVD the day(s)-Night(s) before anyway I always watch the other parts to a movie when going to watch a sequel.

1) it gets you really in the mood

2) it refreshes your memory of some little thing what might not of seemed important at the time but does later on in a sequel (the Saw movies more so than most others)
Hmm...I never thought of it that way before. Before I saw III in the theater I watched I and II again because I hadn't seen them in a while, but I didn't watch them together, and not right before I watched III. You make good points. I'll have to try your method.

[The Dream Master]

Yeah, I was kind of excited about the theatrical triple feature until I realized I can just sit in the comfort of my own home and watch them on Blu-ray. It'd be different if I hadn't already seen all three in theaters the first day they were released.

Speaking of which, I'm really looking forward to watching Saw III again this weekend.

[Apocalypto]

I'm big on repeat viewings anyway, I've seen SAW 4x in theaters and each sequel 10x.

If my theatre gets the quadruple feature, I'll be there without a doubt. I'm anxious to see the theatre listing.

[Jigsaw]

I didn't seen the first Saw in the theaters but I did see both sequels theatrically (Saw II twice). I'd love to attend the theatrical Saw marathon if any theaters near me will have it.

[French Friday]

I'm big on repeat viewings anyway, I've seen SAW 4x in theaters and each sequel 10x.


Amazing ! Astonishing !

My favorite movie of all time, Jaws, I want to watch it only once every 2 or 3 years now (it was different when it was the only movie I was in love with). I watch a movie on theater once, maybe two if I really really really loved it, then on DVD a year later, then, the around 3 years cycle begins.

So, people who can watch the same movie 10 times in less than 4 years (maybe more on DVD as you speak only for the theater ?), just amaze me.

But I'm someone who hate reruns usually. I love what's new. Hence my love for sequels, serials, TV shows.

Each time the same thing, but each time new.

[it_must_be_SAW]

Amazing ! Astonishing !

My favorite movie of all time, Jaws, I want to watch it only once every 2 or 3 years now (it was different when it was the only movie I was in love with). I watch a movie on theater once, maybe two if I really really really loved it, then on DVD a year later, then, the around 3 years cycle begins.

So, people who can watch the same movie 10 times in less than 4 years (maybe more on DVD as you speak only for the theater ?), just amaze me.

But I'm someone who hate reruns usually. I love what's new. Hence my love for sequels, serials, TV shows.

Each time the same thing, but each time new.

Woa. I always watch old movies and stuff over and over again...

[Apocalypto]

Amazing ! Astonishing !

My favorite movie of all time, Jaws, I want to watch it only once every 2 or 3 years now (it was different when it was the only movie I was in love with). I watch a movie on theater once, maybe two if I really really really loved it, then on DVD a year later, then, the around 3 years cycle begins.as you speak only for the theater ?), just amaze me.

So, people who can watch the same movie 10 times in less than 4 years (maybe more on DVD

But I'm someone who hate reruns usually. I love what's new. Hence my love for sequels, serials, TV shows.

Each time the same thing, but each time new.

I saw my two favorite films of all time, The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King and The Passion of the Christ, 26 and 12 x in theatres (and there are a few films that I've seen more than Passion in theatres, and tons of other films that I have many repeat theatrical viewings with).

With dvd it'd be far too many count for just about all of my favorites, sometimes I see them about 7x within a week of their dvd release.

[Jigsaw]

http://www.reelzchannel.com/movie/227122/saw-iv


A new clip has been released, it's Leaving The Clinic.

Pretty sad, apparantly Jill was pregnant with John's child when Cecil slammed the door hard on her, likely killing the baby. I hope this movie doesn't totally disregard the events of the Rebirth prequel comic though.

[TheCurse]

Before, we were led to believe that the reason Jigsaw picks people who don't appreciate their lives is because he's dying of cancer. After watching that clip, I assume that the loss of his unborn child is another major reason.

That clip got me really stoked for this film. I LOVE seeing flashbacks of a walking/running Jigsaw, because they contrast so well with the weak, basically bedridden Jigsaw.

[Apocalypto]

Very emotional.

I think the main hinderence could be that the flashbacks are far more intriuging than the actual story.

[The Dream Master]

I don't know, I think I'm far more interested in the flashbacks than anything else.

[Jigsaw]

I personally feel that we've learned enough about John from the previous three films and the Rebirth prequel comic. I'm afraid things like this might ruin his backstory, especially if they contradict the events of Rebirth (which was approved by James and Leigh as John's official backstory :meh: ).

From the looks of that clip, John might be on his way to becoming a tragic type of killer, somewhat like Jason in that he (may have) initially killed out of revenge before changing his methods to help people, rather than seek vengeance. Still, I feel it's out of character for him and goes against what we learned in the previous films.

[Kane Lives]

I'll watch part 1-3 on DVD the day(s)-Night(s) before anyway I always watch the other parts to a movie when going to watch a sequel.

1) it gets you really in the mood

2) it refreshes your memory of some little thing what might not of seemed important at the time but does later on in a sequel (the Saw movies more so than most others)


I agree. I started doing that last night actually. I watched the first SAW. I'll skip a day or two and then watch SAW II, and then do the same with SAW III. Hopefully, I'll be finished and get them all in by the time I go to see SAW IV.

I tried to start a little early, since I tried this method way back on Jason X to put myself in the mood for that film only two days before its release, and didn't even come close to watching all the films. So, I just picked the best ones. lol

[French Friday]

Woa. I always watch old movies and stuff over and over again...

Too many things to do, so little time.

I prefer spending my time on new stuff.

Only my true favorite movies are always on my shelf, waiting to be rewatched every 2 or 3 years. Maybe 1% of what I saw.

[Apocalypto]

I personally feel that we've learned enough about John from the previous three films and the Rebirth prequel comic. I'm afraid things like this might ruin his backstory, especially if they contradict the events of Rebirth (which was approved by James and Leigh as John's official backstory :meh: ).

From the looks of that clip, John might be on his way to becoming a tragic type of killer, somewhat like Jason in that he (may have) initially killed out of revenge before changing his methods to help people, rather than seek vengeance. Still, I feel it's out of character for him and goes against what we learned in the previous films.

Well it's not like we saw his entire life in the previous films, there's nothing wrong with showing he evolved into what he was.

I just got tickets to the SAW-athon, the listing is up so you can just enter your area code and see how close it's coming to where you live.

[Jigsaw]

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/419176/saw_iv_sneakpeek_preview.html


First review. It's spoiler-free so don't worry.

[jayTL]

Well it's not like we saw his entire life in the previous films, there's nothing wrong with showing he evolved into what he was.

I just got tickets to the SAW-athon, the listing is up so you can just enter your area code and see how close it's coming to where you live.
None in CT of course...but look at Mass and NY..about 25-30!

I hate that

[Apocalypto]

Does anybody know if the dvd of the first SAW that comes with the boxed set being released tomorrow is the liquid blood case dvd?