The best there is, the best there was, the best there ever will be (Bret Hart thread)

[BlakeTyner]

I mentioned on the proboards forum that I've only been an occasional viewer of WWF/WWE wrestling, but after seeing the documentary "Hitman Hart - Wrestling With Shadows" I've really taken an interest in this Bret Hart guy. Jeansie was nice enough to link me to the wiki article about the Montreal Screwjob, which was covered a little bit in the film. I understand that it resulted in the "Mr. McMahon" thing, which I remembered from watching back in the days of the Rock.

Still, I don't know enough about wrestling to know much about the Hart family. So, what are your opinions of him (and his father/brothers)? I know he took a lot of flack in America for his anti-American storyline, but did that have any lasting effect?

Anyone else think it's pretty cool that he decked Vince?

~BT

[Myers, Michael]

I think Bret is probably one of the best ever. His father was a great trainer who trained some of the greatest ever to step in the ring. Owen is sadly very underrated. I think overall he may have been better a better wrestler then Bret, even though not quite as technically sound. But I think he had a more solid overall package. As for the anit-American thing, I think that most people understood that it was all for storyline purposes and he didn't really feel that way.

Oh, and I think it was great that he decked Vince. Even though I don't think he was necessarily in the right in the situation either.

[Kat]

I love Bret Hart the wrestler, but Bret Hart the person.....errr I am not too keen on. Even though I grew up around Calgary, I still support McMahon 100% in what he did. Bret was a whiney crybaby about losing that belt and he should have done the right thing. While I think it is kind of funny that he hit McMahon, I still feel it was a crock of BS. He should have stood up and took the loss, while I do understand (and rightfully so) how he didn't want to do that.

[The Dark Vampire]

The screw job I 100% support Vince end of the day the boss tells you to job the you job I don’t care who you are and who they are also if you were the owner of one of the two biggest wrestling companies the world has ever known and you world champion was leaving and going to the opposition would you give him the chance to take the title with him.

WCW did it with the Womans title they had Medusa/Alundra Blaze drop it in the bin I hate to think what they would of done to the WWE(F) World Championship
(To be fair to WWE when the had Ric Flair and the WCW World championship they didn’t come close to doing it disrespect they even put it over as a Championship title

Anyway back to the screw job and again your told to job and that’s just what you do Vince could tell The Rock to job clean to Dink The Midget Clown and that’s what he would have to do.

As fir his in ring work no doubt he’s good or even great but not as great as he genuinely thinks he is.

Now I know some won’t agree but Bret couldn’t cut a promo I have DVD’s of him back in the day and every promo he has he fumbles his words forgets what he’s going to say and even has a stutter or two
ADDED:
Damn forgot to put this

Anyway some people believe that the Screw job is a work

The plan was for Bret to leave WWE and join WCW for X amount of years under a lot of conservatory and re join WWE later on wich would of course hit the headlines and would be on of the biggest money making feuds in pro wrestling history.

Of course WWE and Bret didn't count on WCW treating him like shit while I didn't watch it (due to been in the UK) from what I have heard nobody the fans Bret or WCW didn't know if Bret was face or heel he seemed to switch every week.

they couldn't of foreseen the Goldberg kick to the head what ended his career

It would be possible to set up if Jerry "The King" Lawler and Andy Kaufman can kayfabe everybody for all those years into think the feud was real (they tricked everyone the fans other wrestlers even their own families) they Bret and Vince (with HBK) should be able to pull it off

[BlakeTyner]

While I agree that one does the job the boss tells you to do, it's not as if Bret was asking to take the title with him to WCW. He understood that he would have to drop it before he exited, and there was still plenty of time in his contract to do that after SummerSlam. Bret had the good sense to include a provision in his contract - that he had reasonable creative control in the last 30 days or whatever. He attempted to use his contractual right: to drop the title to anybody, anywhere - but not to Shaun Michaels and not in Canada. That, to me, is reasonable creative control. It would have been unreasonable to simply refuse to drop the title, but his antagonism with Michaels, along with the fact that he was a pretty big fan favorite in Canada, justifies, IMHO, what Bret was trying to do.

The fact that McMahon, et al agreed - only to crawfish on both the gentelmen's agreement AND the contractual obligation - was pretty shitty. It seems to me like Bret wanted to be loyal to Vince and the WWF, up to the point where A) they weren't paying him, and B) Vince encouraging him to sign with WCW.

Idunno, the whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[The Dark Vampire]

The next night on Raw was going to be his last night in WWE and they had to consider what would they do if he didn’t show up to drop the title after all what could they do fire him fine him (they did WCW would of paid it for him as they would if WWE had stopped any money they owed him)

It wouldn’t of been impossible for Ted Turner and Eric to offer Bret say a million to do something like that then drop the WWE title in the bin.

While it’s debatable would Bret do that or not you have to put yourself in Vince’s shoes would you take that risk?
I for sure wouldn’t

[Zombie]

The thing with Bret though, he "said" he would have rather dropped it or even gave it away the next night on Raw. Who really knows though? Bret could say everything he want's but who know's if he was already in cahoots with WCW to bring the title to them as the war between the two at that time was still on fire.

There's a lot of "what if's" at the end of Bret's career in WWF/E, we'll never know what would have happened had he been given the oppurtunity to keep the title at the end of that PPV. He showed up the next night at WCW. Would he have even been on Raw the next night if he was still champion?

I think as owner he did the most logical reason and decided not to take that chance. However, he could have just told Bret that he had to lose instead of doing what he did. Then again, in the end, this all might of been the "planned" thing and Bret might of came back to WWE with an even bigger feud but of course his career ended in WCW.

So we may never know the entire truth. Much like we'll never know how long the "Vince is dead" angle would have gone and who would have been behind it. However from reading everyone's responces to that I think no one really even cared and glad that angle got scrapped in the end.

[The Dream Master]

Zombie, I don't think Bret debuted the very next night on Nitro. If I recall correctly, Wrestling With Shadows shows Hart in his home watching Raw the night after Survivor Series.

As for the screwjob:

Vince should have known Bret better than to believe he'd take the belt over to WCW. Say what you want about Hart, but I always had the idea that he respected the hell out of the business. I have no doubt that he would have dropped the belt at some point before he went to WCW.

[The Dark Vampire]

But you can't say for 100% sure Vince may of trusted Bret but did he trust WCW they could and would of gave Bret a couple of million to do appear on WCW TV with the tile as throw it in the bin or even worse while it sounds ridiculous WCW (Ted and Eric) really did hate WWE and Vince that much.

Who knows what Bret would of done for that much money end of the day like Ted DiBiase said everyone has a price.

Even if there was just 1 chance in a million Bret would of done it Vince couldn’t of afforded to take that risk.

Yes maybe there was another way was it just HBK he didn’t want to drop it to?

If so could they of added a 3 man at the last minute and made it a triple threat with that person taking the win (maybe even pin HBK to do so)

Refusing to loose in Canada is BS all the way or HBK could refuse to lose in the US Regal could refuse to lose in the UK Rey could refuse to lose in Mexico.

[Myers, Michael]

Everyone in the situation handled it poorly IMO. I mean Vince should have been more straight up in telling Bret that it's not how it's going down. But I can understand his position. What Bret wanted to do was vacate the title the next night at Raw. He didn't want to drop it in a match. He wanted to vacate it. Now how do you think that would have made the WWF look? Bret saying "Here's your title. Now I'm going over to the competition to try and win their title because it means more". I know that wouldn't be how it was, but that would be how it looked and Vince knew it.

[Deathscythe]

I love how Bret used to come to the ring with those pimp pink sunglasses. One of my favorite wrestlers ever.

[BlakeTyner]

Thing is, if Bret was in it for the money he'd have accepted the $9 million dollar, 3-year contract with WCW. Instead, he signed a 20-year contract with WWF, only to be stiffed out of the money he was supposed to receive. Then, with Vince's encouragement (noting that the WWF was in 'financial peril'), he signed with the WCW. Add in the fact that the WWF was headed for its "Attitude" era - which Hart regarded as smut (rightfully so, IMO) and it's really no surprise that he'd want to switch over. Prudent business sense dictates that he sign with WCW, but it was obvious that he wanted to leave on good terms.

Vince, rather than just outright ordering Hart to do it his way (which he couldn't do anyway, given the 'reasonable creative control' clause,) decided to send Hart away in humiliation.

Let me put it to you this way, since you're considering Vince's perspective on the whole thing. What if Bret agreed to drop the title in Montreal, against Michaels, then got into the ring that night and, despite what had been planned beforehand, pinned Michaels and won the match? If you were McMahon, wouldn't you feel betrayed? Wouldn't you go after his ass for breach of contract? My personal feeling is that the only reason Bret didn't hit McMahon with breach of contract is because he knew McMahon would hit him with assault and battery for slugging him. Plus, WWF was already in 'financial peril' and had deferred Bret's salary indefinitely - you can't squeeze blood out of an onion, after all.

I suppose it doesn't really make a difference in the end. WWF/WWE survived and won the battle. I just really think that it was done in poor taste.

~BT

[Myers, Michael]

I agree. The situation was handled poorly by Vince McMahon. But at the same time all I'm saying is that I understand why Vince was reluctant to not just let Bret vacate the title before leaving and wanted him to put over the new champion. That's how it was done when a champion would leave their territory for another. They'd put over the new champion and make him look as good as possible before departing.

[The Dark Vampire]

BTW that is also historical due to the fact it was the first time ever that it had been publicly acknowledged (on screen) that Vince was in fact the owner and not just a "normal" announcer I know a lot of people who had no idea before that.

Another way they could of got the title off him that night is stripped him off the title (he would know before hand)

The match was supposed to end in a double DQ after the Hart Foundation started brawling with DX so the on air president could of come down and make the title vacant

[Mutant Leprechaun]

I'm on Vince's side all the way on this one, Bret should've jobbed but when he attempted to use creative control he should of at least saw it coming, Vince McMahon didn't become as successful as he is today by being kind to the people who leaving to go to the competition.

As unfair as the situation seems, the one thing to remember is that above all else Vince is a business man, and a highly successful one at that. And a big part of being a business man is knowing what's best for your company and being willing to go to any lengths to keep it going. If that means humiliating an ex-employee, so be it.

You've got to be ruthless to survive in a competitive business.

[BlakeTyner]

Yeah, Mutant, you're completely right. I think Vince is an excellent business man. Likewise, I think Wal-Mart is a great business, even though I hate that place with a purple passion.

Vince was all about the bottom line, which is the correct way to keep the shareholders happy (wasn't the WWF about to go public when all this went down?) But, on the flip side, I'll never pay him a dime (not so much because of the screwjob, but because wrestling in general is so cruel to its worker bees. The thing with Benoit means a lot of articles have been in the magazines recently, and from what I understand, the active wrestlers have to cover their own insurance, etc. Pretty sure they don't get an NFL-style pension, either.) I must be in the minority, because he's raking in the dough - these things must not bother other people that much.

I don't think Bret came out smelling like a rose, either, but I do think he kinda got the shaft.

~BT

[Mutant Leprechaun]

The thing with Benoit means a lot of articles have been in the magazines recently, and from what I understand, the active wrestlers have to cover their own insurance, etc

Although according to Dave Finlay (during an appearance on Nancy Grace), the wrestlers are paid more than enough to cover insurance and pensions, whether they choose to do so is up to them.

[The Dark Vampire]

I think Vince gets a lot of shit thrown at him but he can be a nice guy

Did you know he is still paying Brain Pillman’s wife the money what Brian had on his contract even though his contract would of expired by now and as said she will get paid as long as he in charge (same goes for Eddie) even though the reason Brain died was nowhere near WWE’s fault he had a bad heart which was missed by both WCW and WWE doctors plus Brain's pre WWE lifestyle wasn’t WWE’s fault

He paid for Dorz’s house to be completely rebuilt to make it wheelchair friendly including a lift/elevator or something to get him up stairs plus Droz is still on the pay roll getting the same amount he would have if he’s been active.

edit to add Vince also paid for the best wheelchair money can buy and had it customized to meet Droz's needs


He would pay Owen’s wife to but she has refused it just like Vince wanted Owen in the HOF but she refused to let him be inducted.

No Vince is no angel but he’s not as evil as some like to think he is

[Brett H.]

Bret Hart is in my top two favorite wrestlers of all time (Hogan was so much fun back in the day, but Hart is the better wrestler, so I am torn on which to place as the best). The whole Hart family/extended family were absolutely great for wrestling for so many years, and they can't be thanked enough. Owen was amazing too and was always a favorite, even in his heel days.

The Canada vs. USA feud ruled so much, the funny thing was most of the stuff Bret would say about the US was dead on true :X

I agree though, he should have gave the belt over in Montreal.

[Mutant Leprechaun]

I think Vince gets a lot of shit thrown at him but he can be a nice guy

Did you know he is still paying Brain Pillman’s wife the money what Brian had on his contract even though his contract would of expired by now and as said she will get paid as long as he in charge (same goes for Eddie) even though the reason Brain died was nowhere near WWE’s fault he had a bad heart which was missed by both WCW and WWE doctors plus Brain's pre WWE lifestyle wasn’t WWE’s fault

He paid for Dorz’s house to be completely rebuilt to make it wheelchair friendly including a lift/elevator or something to get him up stairs plus Droz is still on the pay roll getting the same amount he would have if he’s been active.

edit to add Vince also paid for the best wheelchair money can buy and had it customized to meet Droz's needs


He would pay Owen’s wife to but she has refused it just like Vince wanted Owen in the HOF but she refused to let him be inducted.

No Vince is no angel but he’s not as evil as some like to think he is

I agree with you Dark Vampire, the man is good at what he does but that shouldn't indicate that he is Satan incarnate as some seem to think.

[BlakeTyner]

Dark Vampire, I didn't know any of that. Vince's stock just went up in my book.

~BT

[Violent VictiM]

In the day when Bret Hart ruled supreme, there is only one thing that can be said; he was a fucking awesome guy. His in ring ability was great, his entertainment value was through the roof, and he just had all the makings of a great superstar. Is he really the best there is, was, and ever will be? No. That's Ric Flair. But this thread isn't about Ric Flair, it's about Bret.

While working for the WWE, I loved Bret Hart. His gimmick was great, and when he switched over to the Anti-American angle, I loved to hate him. Before Cena got his long as title run that's based solely on money and marketing approach, Bret Hart had an amazing run that was well deserved. Until this day I hold that point in WWE history as a great time to be a wrestling fan.

Then came Survivor Series. And that all changed. Bret Hart had just put a great deal of years, made Vince a shitload of money, and put a lot of asses in the seats. After an impressive run, Vince holds off on paying Bret some of the money he owes him, and being a person who understands he needs to provide for his family using the craft God gave him, he explains to Vince that if he doesn't pay him, he's going to defect to WCW. He even went as far as to telling Vince he'd work for less than promised to stay with the company, to which Vince told him that was his choice to make, and he'd support him 100%.

So after realizing Vince wasn't about to pay him what he asked for, he asked one simple thing. He had lost many-a-match in his day, and I'm sure a few of them in Montreal itself. But for his last PPV, his final time on a grand stage of that scale, he didn't want to lose. Who would want to lose at a PPV period? So is it so hard to really grasp that he just didn't want to lose his last match, on his last grand stage, in his hometown? So when Vince agreed, and then totally screwed Bret over, Vince was automatically the douche bag. If Vince wouldn't have gave his word that he'd lose the title the next night on RAW and thus, making a verbal promise with a long time employee, then I'd see no wrong on his part.

Now, I don't personally know Bret Hart nor what went on in his meetings with WCW. But I'm almost positive that Bret wouldn't have went over to WCW with the title. He just doesn't seem like that kind of guy. He respected his job, and all the guys in the back so I don't think he'd slap Vince in the face like that. We now know he'll punch him, but something that just leaves a faint sting isn't on the Hitman's list. I'm sure Bret has a WWE repilica, he could have easily brought that to WCW.

I'd say my opinion on Bret started to sway when year after year, Wrestlemania after Wrestlemania I held onto hope that one day Bret Hart was going to walk through those curtains. That guitar riff was gonna blare and he was gonna come down. He didn't need to be in the tights, or even wearing the glasses. He just had to walk out, get in the ring, say some words and be out. And it would have made my day.

But sure enough, it never happened. Until one day they said that Bret was going to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. They always come out on stage at Wrestlemania when they are inducted into the Hall of Fame. I was about to see Bret Hart on live WWE television for the first time in years, and I was happy. But what did Bret do? He went to the ceremony, and skipped out on the live show "for personal reasons". And that my friends, is the day everything I felt for Bret died.

So at this point I didn't hate him, but I just basically struck him from the record of memory of wrestling. Then he went and did something that made me hate him. He went on a radio station and began bashing the WWE, and Hulk Hogan (granted I don't like Hogan, and if anyone wants to start a Hogan thread I'll bring it there). When he just did blatant slander work like that, especially when there's good employees, like King and JR, wrestlers who put their all into every night, and you have the audacity to speak of the company that way, it just shocked me is all. So I can safely say, I hate Bret Hart.

[Toejam]

I side with Vince, because when you leave a promotion, you got to do the job. Bret needed to lose the title, not just vacate it.
When I saw "Hitman Hart - Wrestling With Shadows" I felt like Bret the Person, and Bret the Wrestler were the same guy. He was his gimmick.
He couldn't step back and see it from the company's point of view. Any blame people put on Vince should be pointed towards Bret being
booked as World Champ so closed to him leaving the company. At the time WWF was losing the ratings war, they just couldn't risk their champ
(or their previous champ who never lost the belt, just dropped it) showing up a few weeks later in WCW.

[The Dark Vampire]

Bret Hart quietly divorced his second wife Cinzia a few weeks ago. Cinzia didn't want to leave Italy and Hart didn't want to live the rest of his life there.

Credit>The Wrestling Observer Newsletter.

Sorry to hear that

[zombie extra 3]

I think Vince gets a lot of shit thrown at him but he can be a nice guy

Did you know he is still paying Brain Pillman’s wife the money what Brian had on his contract even though his contract would of expired by now and as said she will get paid as long as he in charge (same goes for Eddie) even though the reason Brain died was nowhere near WWE’s fault he had a bad heart which was missed by both WCW and WWE doctors plus Brain's pre WWE lifestyle wasn’t WWE’s fault

He paid for Dorz’s house to be completely rebuilt to make it wheelchair friendly including a lift/elevator or something to get him up stairs plus Droz is still on the pay roll getting the same amount he would have if he’s been active.

edit to add Vince also paid for the best wheelchair money can buy and had it customized to meet Droz's needs


He would pay Owen’s wife to but she has refused it just like Vince wanted Owen in the HOF but she refused to let him be inducted.

No Vince is no angel but he’s not as evil as some like to think he is

Yea, Vince also paid for Bam Bam Bigelow's funeral I believe.